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Who is the mvp / cy young if ....

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  • #1

    Who is the mvp / cy young if ....

    had a weird thought. 1968 Bob Gibson was so off the chart and a desrving double Cy Young MVP.

    Who would have been Cy Young if Gibson was eliminated from consideration? I am thinking you can't just look at WAR because WAR will have Gibson factored into the equation for that year.

    so here are a few years/awards I would like thoughts and comments on:

    NL: 1963 who wins Cy Young, who wins VP if Koufax is removed from the equation
    - well I guess Cy Young would be for both leagues
    AL: 1964 who wins Cy Young if Dean Chance is removed from consideration (both leagues thing again)
    PLUS 1964 AL MVP - who wins MVP if Brooks Robinson is removed from consideration
    1966 NL MVP - who wins if Clemente is removed from consideration
    1966 CY YOUNG (both leages) who wins CY if Koufax is removed from consideration
    1967 NL CY YOUNG - who wins if McCormick is removed from consideration
    1968 NL CY YOUNG AND MVP (previously mentioned - no Gibson)
    1969 NL CY YOUNG - no Seaver
    1969 AL MVP - no Killebrew
    1970 AL MVP - no Powell
    1971 AL MVP - no Blue
    1972 AL CY YOUNG - no Gaylord Perry
    1972 NL CYYOUNG - no Steve Carlton

    and any other years that interest someone
    Last edited by 9RoyHobbsRF; 08-13-2012, 11:54 PM.
    1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
    2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
    3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/
    Tags: None
  • #2
    1972 NL CYYOUNG - no Steve Carlton
    I'd have to go with Don Sutton. Voting was hellbent on 20 game winners in the past and I think that's why Jenkins got 19% of the vote with an ERA+ of 118 while Sutton only got 5% of the vote with an ERA+ of 162. He won 19 that year, but I believe had he reached 20, he would have collected many more votes.

    Sutton did get 20 wins a few years later, and even though his ERA was a full run higher than '72 and his ERA+ was only 110, he still got 21% of the vote.
    "Chuckie doesn't take on 2-0. Chuckie's hackin'." - Chuck Carr two days prior to being released by the Milwaukee Brewers

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    • #3
      ^ his walks hits and home runs allowed were truly incredible

      but again I wonder if stats like ERA+ can be useful as remember we are removing Carlton (and his stats) from the equation
      1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
      2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
      3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

      Comment

      • #4
        Cy Youngs are easy

        1963 Marichal
        1964 Marichal
        1965 Marichal
        1966 Marichal
        1968 Marichal
        1969 Marichal

        not being a wise guy, I really believe this. Marichal's peak is one of the best ever.
        This week's Giant

        #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

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        • #5
          the MVP is A-rod every year

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Ben Grimm View Post
            I'd have to go with Don Sutton. Voting was hellbent on 20 game winners in the past and I think that's why Jenkins got 19% of the vote with an ERA+ of 118 while Sutton only got 5% of the vote with an ERA+ of 162. He won 19 that year, but I believe had he reached 20, he would have collected many more votes.

            Sutton did get 20 wins a few years later, and even though his ERA was a full run higher than '72 and his ERA+ was only 110, he still got 21% of the vote.
            I don't agree. Maybe people just don't care about ERA+ as the one stat that determines everything (nor should they now.) Ron Bryant had 24 wins in 1973, but the voters felt (rightfully so) that Seaver was clearly better.
            This week's Giant

            #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

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            • #7
              It's kind of retroactive to say Gibson was "so off the charts" in 1968. People think that now, but it wasn't all that then, at least not until the end part of the season when people began to realize what he'd done. He was NOT a unanimous choice for the MVP, which Denny McLain was in the AL. Why is the 1968 AL Cy Young-MVP not on your list anyhow? Because McLain's season doesn't look so marvelous 45 years later? It should be.
              "Here's a crazy thought I've always had: if they cut three fingers off each hand, I'd really be a great hitter because then I could level off better." Paul Waner (lifetime .333 hitter, 3,152 lifetime hits.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Buzzaldrin View Post
                It's kind of retroactive to say Gibson was "so off the charts" in 1968. People think that now, but it wasn't all that then, at least not until the end part of the season when people began to realize what he'd done. He was NOT a unanimous choice for the MVP, which Denny McLain was in the AL. Why is the 1968 AL Cy Young-MVP not on your list anyhow? Because McLain's season doesn't look so marvelous 45 years later? It should be.
                They say the same thing about Orel Hershiser in 1988. But if you look at the top pitchers in late August 1988 Hershiser was not the leading CYA contender at that point. Danny Jackson was. Right at that point Hershiser went on his crazy scoreless streak.
                Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Buzzaldrin View Post
                  It's kind of retroactive to say Gibson was "so off the charts" in 1968. People think that now, but it wasn't all that then, at least not until the end part of the season when people began to realize what he'd done. He was NOT a unanimous choice for the MVP, which Denny McLain was in the AL. Why is the 1968 AL Cy Young-MVP not on your list anyhow? Because McLain's season doesn't look so marvelous 45 years later? It should be.
                  actually this is partially true

                  there was a sports illustrated article about the lack of offense in baseball in June and Don Drysdale, some Indians and Mets among others were in the article but Gibson was not mentioned

                  however once the season ended Gibson's stats were statistically off the chart and you can just look at his WAR which was almost TWICE the next pitcher

                  and just as clearly I suggested looking at Gibson's CY YOUNG not his MVP so brining it up is irrelevant


                  as for McLain I could not include EVERY AWARD FOR EVERY YEAR and at the bottom clearly asked for others to be discussed
                  Last edited by 9RoyHobbsRF; 08-14-2012, 11:03 AM.
                  1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                  2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                  3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Oh, I thought it was just late 60s/early 70s MVP's or Cy Young's without the winner present. Figured anyone who won both shoulda been in consideration for "removal". My bad.
                    "Here's a crazy thought I've always had: if they cut three fingers off each hand, I'd really be a great hitter because then I could level off better." Paul Waner (lifetime .333 hitter, 3,152 lifetime hits.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
                      I don't agree. Maybe people just don't care about ERA+ as the one stat that determines everything (nor should they now.) Ron Bryant had 24 wins in 1973, but the voters felt (rightfully so) that Seaver was clearly better.
                      Maybe I shouldn't say "hellbent on 20 game winners" so much as back of bubblegum card stats. In those days, there were three that mattered - Wins (which I still don't understand), strikeouts and ERA.

                      Seaver won 2 of the 3 and it wasn't even close. When I've compared some in the past, they had to at least be somewhat similar. Seaver & Bryant were worlds apart that year.

                      Even as it was, Bryant got almost half the votes that year while being nowhere near the top-10 (even top-20) in anything other than wins. Sutton dominated Bryant in everything but wins but only got 6% of the vote - likely because he only had 18 wins.
                      "Chuckie doesn't take on 2-0. Chuckie's hackin'." - Chuck Carr two days prior to being released by the Milwaukee Brewers

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                      • #12
                        1971 AL - I think Murcer had the best season but the Yankees went from 90 wins to 82-80. Frank Robinson fits the bill. #2 in RBI, division winner. Killebrew led in RBI with 119, noone else topped 100, but he won in 1969, hit .254 and Twins were under .500 which rules out Oliva as well. My first thought was Lolich, but 25 wins was still almost an annual event back then. So that means Frank Robinson even if I think Murcer deserved it.

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