Rogers Hornsby - Revisited

[9RoyHobbsRF]

My first impressions on rating Hornsby came from Bill James Original Historical Baseball Abstract. A devestating incredible hitter - who he ranked as the FOURTH best 2B of all time. Back then we did not have splits for Hornsby (I believe). James made the case that Hornsby was a fielder with major limitations, he was pretty much a jackass, and besides hitting was not high caliber in anything else. Plus he noted Hornsby kept getting traded year after year after year - seems teams could not wait to get rid of him. He projected Hornsby MIGHT have benefited from his home stadium, based on some St. Louis Browns players (shared the same stadium) who we did have some splits on and their splits showed a tremendous home field advantage. But the hitters were in some (or all) cases LH while Rogers was RH. Later James defended his critique and much later moved Hornsby up the rankings so he was in fact the highest rated 2B.

The argument for Hornsby is his offensive numbers are SO off the chart, it might be inconceivable for any other 2B to overtake him NO MATTER how much better they were over Hornsby in all other aspects (fielding, base running, personality and leadership, length of career, post season performance etc). I never really bought that argument. So anyway, I looked him up and we have LOTS of splits for Hornsby.


1924 (his famous .424 season):
HOME .469 BA 15 HR 56 RBI .543 OB .790 SA
ROAD .370 BA 10 HR 38 RBI .469 OB .585 SA

1922
HOME .403 BA 24 HR 83 RBI .460 OB .741 SA
ROAD .400 BA 18 HR 69 RBI .458 OB .703 SA

1925
HOME .478 BA 24 HR 81 RBI .565 OB .902 SA
ROAD .332 BA 15 HR 62 RBI .414 OB .618 SA

1923
HOME .402 BA 11 HR 42 RBI .498 OB .710 SA
ROAD .373 BA 6 HR 41 HR .431 OB .573 SA

1921
HOME .375 BA 12 HR 68 RBI .434 OB .628 SA
ROAD .419 BA 9 HR 55 RBI .482 OB .649 SA

1929
HOME .408 BA 23 HR 80 RBI .501 OB .754 SA
ROAD .355 BA 16 HR 70 RBI .418 OB .610 SA

Hornsby is basically famous for PEAK seasons and these are all outstanding seasons and great numbers incedible at home and very good to excellent away. But when comparing Hornsby against the all time greats (all positions) and all time great 2B, it is clear to me he had a strong home field advantage. And I do buy the argument that he was not a good fielder, he was not a good personality/teammate/leader, and he was fast but not exceptional base runner, and he was done at age 33. .

The data sugggests to me he MUST be downgraded for his home field advantage and with the other factors, Hornsby AT BEST remains my third best 2B of all time and maybe only 4th.
I would rather have more rounded middle infielders that can also provide offense. And Collins, Morgan and Jackie could certainly do that.

[chicagowhitesox1173]

Seems to be a pretty bold statement especially with Lajoie off the list. I'll admit I put Hornsby first because of what i've learned here but if Morgan had a great peak Hornsby was much better.

[willshad]

The stats I see on Baseball reference.com show his lifetime home/road splits to be almost identical, but seem to be missing about 400 games. To me, it doesn't matter, as his road stats blow everyone else away by themselves.
There is really no case for Morgan over Hornsby, except if you give him a HUGE league quality boost. Hornsby was better in the field, and probably a faster runner as well. He obviously was a much better hitter, and had at least 5 seasons that were better than Morgan's best.

[9RoyHobbsRF]

a player who can NOT go out or in for a popup (well documented) is not better in the field

his personality and other traits are poor

he had home field cooking in his best seasons, with drops of as much as 200-300 points in slugging average

Usane Bolt is faster than Joe Morgan, that does not make him a better baserunner

hornsbys only hope is that the splits do not do him wrong, in my mind they do

i always had my doubts about hornsby, these doubts are now confirmed and NOTHING will change my mind

[willshad]

Home 988 922 4083 3482 707 1273 246 63 157 708 50 31 502 303 .366 .448 .608 1.055
Away 969 920 4198 3616 718 1317 252 74 130 674 51 31 452 271 .364 .438 .583 1.021

Looks pretty identical to me.

[9RoyHobbsRF]

1925
HOME .478 BA 24 HR 81 RBI .565 OB .902 SA
ROAD .332 BA 15 HR 62 RBI .414 OB .618 SA

looks like home field cooking to me


take away his home cooking and you have a .332 hitter with 30 HR who slugs .618 and cant field and is a complete jackass

this is hardly an all time great off the chart performance

[willshad]

1925
HOME .478 BA 24 HR 81 RBI .565 OB .902 SA
ROAD .332 BA 15 HR 62 RBI .414 OB .618 SA

looks like home field cooking to me



take away his home cooking and you have a .332 hitter with 30 HR who slugs .618 and cant field and is a complete jackass

this is hardly an all time great off the chart performance

I would take a second baseman with those numbers...how many second basemen have had a .618 slugging average in a season? Those numbers are almost identical to Jeff Kent's 2000 MVP season.

[pheasant]

.364 avg on the road isn't too shabby, which includes 1918-1919, two years in which he didn't post huge averages.

[Dude Paskert]

In his year with the Braves when he had a REALLY tough home park, he still put up huge numbers. I think he had a big reverse split that season.
Sportsman's Park in StL normally favored lefties, but Hornsby was well known for having excellent power the other way and that park seemed to really suit his style of hitting. Rogers stood well away from the plate and stepped towards it during his swing...this style was very controversial and was much discussed in the sports press, but maybe EVERY righty hitter should have done that given Hornsby's results. Anyway, this seemed to naturally give Rogers the ability to hit the ball hard to right, and maybe splits more like a LH hitter in a way.

[9RoyHobbsRF]

a .902 slugging % is HIGHER than the all time record for slugging % in over 112 years of mlb

a .618 SA is pedestrian and happens every day of the week

we are not talking an average player where "I will take a second baseman who hits like that" we are using the info to regard Hornsby as perhaps the greatest second baseman of all time

I would rather have Collins who
1) was a manager on the field so called by Connie Mack, while Hornsby was a confirmed jackass
2) could steal bases and run the bases like an all time great, Hornsby while certainly fast was not a base stealer
3) was by all acounts a superb fielder, Hornsby has been documented to be unable to go out or in for popups (ouch)
4) played late into his career and ammassed 3,000 hits, Hornsby was done at age 33
5) and Collins while doing a great deal of his feats during the dead ball era, also did very well in the liveball era even though he was already 33 (when Hornsby was about finished)
6) and Hornsby was so great and valuable teams could not wait to get rid of him year after year after year
7) and Collins was among the greatest post season players in history

you can have him and his home field cooking and poor defense and jackass personality

I will take Collins every day of the week
then I would take Morgan
then Jackie
then be forced to take Hornsby with all his baggage

[GiambiJuice]

a player who can NOT go out or in for a popup (well documented) is not better in the field

his personality and other traits are poor

he had home field cooking in his best seasons, with drops of as much as 200-300 points in slugging average

Usane Bolt is faster than Joe Morgan, that does not make him a better baserunner

hornsbys only hope is that the splits do not do him wrong, in my mind they do

i always had my doubts about hornsby, these doubts are now confirmed and NOTHING will change my mind

If "NOTHING" will change your mind, why start a discussion about it

[9RoyHobbsRF]

If "NOTHING" will change your mind, why start a discussion about it

because in previous views, I did not have his splits per season

now I do and it confirms what I always surmised and those splits were listed prominently in my first post

[GiambiJuice]

because in previous views, I did not have his splits per season

now I do and it confirms what I always surmised and those splits were listed prominently in my first post

But you cherry picked a few seasons. Willshad showed in post #5 that the Hornsby's CAREER home/away splits (since 1918) are not extreme at all.

[9RoyHobbsRF]

But you cherry picked a few seasons. Willshad showed in post #5 that the Hornsby's CAREER home/away splits (since 1918) are not extreme at all.

Hornsby's record is based on his peak performance and his best seasons, not his short career

Taking his BEST 6 seasons is not cherry picking

it is simple if you read the posts instead of look for reasons to be a pinprick

[9RoyHobbsRF]

If "NOTHING" will change your mind, why start a discussion about it

and why does it bother you what MY opinions are

if you want to argue and have nothing constructive to add to the thread, why participate?