Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Most Hated Yet Respected Player Ever

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    I dont need to see any rebuttals from you, you are a SOURCE for my opinion as stated on this very forum and already quoted
    2) here is a quote from ubiquitous on this very forum: 'Ted did things in his life that were viewed as, and probably were, bad things"

    saying nobody is perfect is not a rebuttal it is an admission
    1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
    2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
    3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
      There are also confirmed issues with Williams in the 1946 pennant winning season, throwing temper tantrums after hitting into the Boudreau shift, having disputes with teammates about his stubborness into still trying to pull the ball into the shift, not going to the team's victory party

      attack James all you want, Williams record is there for anyone to see and it is NOT pretty
      I agree. Williams was an ******* and defending him is either being contrary or being biased. My father grew up in Southie, as did his parents. All of them would tell you that people didn't like Williams because he was an angry, arrogant jerk. Strains between him and the media/fans may not have always been started by him, but his personality never helped the situation.
      "Allen Sutton Sothoron pitched his initials off today."--1920s article

      Comment


      • #33
        That bit about Ted getting riled about the Boudreau shift, stubbornly refusing to hit the other way, and quarrels with team mates over same has lots of holes:

        1. He wasn't being at all irrational. As he really anguished over this with older players and confidantes, he had mastered a disciplined approach to hitting. He was very anguished about tinkering with it, lest it throw him off in timing, bat speed, contact, etc. Most would agree, he was a total STUDENT of hitting.

        2. The further fan relationship is from the player and his teammates, opponents, other baseball people, the media that cover them daily, and their intimate social circles, the more static there is in comprehensive and accurate information.

        3. Somehow I do recall TSW going the other way against those very Indians for an inside-the-park HR of some consequence.

        Comment


        • #34
          Well, I guess we could agree that Ted was urm . . . "controversial." I made a facetious remark about "Teddy Ballgame" to my father (a Yankee fan since Ruth's days), and he hit the roof, "'Teddy Ballgame' indeed. There wasn't a player who thought less about the game and more about himself than Teddy Ballgame!" This was about ten years ago. I guess he'd kept it bottled up for a long time. On the other hand, you could read John Updike's elegiac essay, "Hub Fans Bid Kid Adieu" to get a sense of how the fans at his last game felt about him.

          Bill James offered that quotation as a corrective to the image of Ted as the epitome of what was best about the "Greatest Generation," so he obviously wasn't universally hated.

          He did have Cliff Keane following him around making his life and his reputation miserable. Sort of as if Bayliss was assigned to Jeter for his entire career.

          And a lot of people in Boston and a lot of other places associate Ted with his work with the Jimmy Fund.

          So all in all it's hard for me to believe that he fits the "most hated" criterion.
          Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
            I dont need to see any rebuttals from you, you are a SOURCE for my opinion as stated on this very forum and already quoted
            2) here is a quote from ubiquitous on this very forum: 'Ted did things in his life that were viewed as, and probably were, bad things"

            saying nobody is perfect is not a rebuttal it is an admission
            An admission of what? That he was human? We all have skeletons in our closets, but we aren't being constantly scrutinized by the media. Mickey Mantle was an ******* too, read "The Last Boy". It paints a pretty ugly picture, but he's still the golden boy of baseball, and Williams is somehow perceived as poison.
            They call me Mr. Baseball. Not because of my love for the game; because of all the stitches in my head.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
              I dont need to see any rebuttals from you, you are a SOURCE for my opinion as stated on this very forum and already quoted
              2) here is a quote from ubiquitous on this very forum: 'Ted did things in his life that were viewed as, and probably were, bad things"

              saying nobody is perfect is not a rebuttal it is an admission
              Admission of what? That nobody is perfect? So it is an admission of my point? No human being on the planet is a one dimensional caricature. Every single human being on the planet has good and bad faults. I admit that freely and openly.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by ol' aches and pains View Post
                His first three years of pro ball, he didn't antagonize anybody. Per his promise to Branch Rickey, he took all the crap that was sent his way without retaliation. And most of it was race-based. By the time that three-year stipulation was up, he had had enough.
                I don't think that's entirely true. During Robinson's first season he had a famous flare-up with Joe Garagiola. Robonson also had a habit of antagonizing some teammates as well.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by leewileyfan View Post
                  Ed, not to be argumentative; but by the mid '50s, I believe most Americans had come to respect Ted for his 5+ years of military service, a respect greatly enhanced by veteran's testimonials about what a great pilot he was and how meticulously he landed his plan that had been hit. Witness upon witness told of what a perfectionist he was, wanting to know every possible detail about the quirks, limitations and capabilities of the aircraft he was expected to pilot. He was as fixated on that as he was about hitting.

                  Then too, Ted had that special faculty of entering and exiting the baseball stage with a flair. He did tv promotions for the Jimmy Fund in NY [and I guess to a very broad audience]; and any "kid" who ever met him [like me, getting his autograph outside Yankee Stadium] can tell how great he was with kids. [He was called "The Kid" himself ... 'cause part of him hadn't fully grown up].

                  Lots of folks in the US had begun to sour on "saber rattling" and global engagements, especially when lots of families hung gold stars in windows for what the pols and historians were already calling "a police action." [Yeah, like mopping up ... only not quite so for those who served in Korea.

                  Personally, I volunteered for the draft as Korea was winding down. Even then, with less than a year to go, We "Frozen Chosen," north of the Arctic Circle, were put on full alert, the scuttlebutt being we were going to be shipped out to the Suez Canal.

                  The "War" thing was beginning to wear out its welcome, even among those proud to be doing their service time.

                  Yep, I recall the 1942 brouhaha, with Ted's mom and family issues ... but he did go - clean slate.
                  I'm skeptical that Williams wartime experiences or years in the military would have impressed people in an era when so many other Americans were recent veterans. I think the prevailing attitude would have been more along the lines of 'I was in the Army or drafted and I kept my mouth shut'.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    After both service obligations Ted got a rather big welcome back from Boston and the media. Also, before he left to go to Korea he had a big send off.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Fans of teams whose players were being thrown at regularly by Gibson hated him, while admitting he was an outstanding pitcher and athlete. Cards fans loved his play, but he never had anything approaching a warm fuzzy relationship with his home crowd.
                      Frank Robinson was an aggressive, in your face kind of guy who crowded the plate and then complained about getting hit. He wasn't shy about issuing challenges in the press, like when Clemente had some complaint about playing RF in Memorial and Robinson said Roberto should watch how he played RF and take lessons from it. Frank was sort of like Nails Dykstra in personality, although far more intelligent and mature. As a manager, Frank was known for having his pitchers throw high and tight despite his problems with the HBP as a player.

                      I'm not so sure about the fan reaction to Grove, he was probably shielded somewhat by the press of his time. I do remember that he wanted to beat up a player on his team whom he felt had cost him a win...would he have had that desire if the player had been Foxx? He's sure a guy who could easily have been hated, not sure if he really was...can't imagine he was very popular anywhere.
                      Last edited by Dude Paskert; 08-23-2012, 06:39 AM.
                      "If I drink whiskey, I'll never get worms!" - Hack Wilson

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by leewileyfan View Post
                        ...
                        Lots of folks in the US had begun to sour on "saber rattling" and global engagements, especially when lots of families hung gold stars in windows for what the pols and historians were already calling "a police action." [Yeah, like mopping up ... only not quite so for those who served in Korea.

                        Personally, I volunteered for the draft as Korea was winding down. Even then, with less than a year to go, We "Frozen Chosen," north of the Arctic Circle, were put on full alert, the scuttlebutt being we were going to be shipped out to the Suez Canal.

                        ...
                        I think people have gotten the impression from MASH that the Korean War was about drinking and playing pranks on your friends. There was a lot of desperate fighting going on, particularly upon the initial North Korean invasion and then when the Chinese stepped in...the US was caught totally off guard at the start and a lot of ill equipped men were sacrificed in a holding action while troops and supplies were rushed in to an ever shrinking defensive line. The US had almost no tanks in the Pacific and the Soviet surplus T34s ran wild without even the latest bazookas to stop them. Later on, the Chinese troops hit the lines like a tsunami. It was serious, deadly fighting, no question.

                        My father ended up fighting in the Army in WWII, but, boy, he didn't want to go. He had a good career going and lived with his widowed mother, not as her sole support but definitely helping her out. Dad must have had contacts and somehow joined up with the Coast Guard near Chicago, but got drafted into the Army, anyway (don't ask me how it all worked out, I don't understand it). He did his duty in North Africa, Sicily, Britain, France, Belgium, and Germany, bringing home a Purple Heart from a facial wound incurred when a friend got blown to bits a few feet away from him. It's easy to look back and think that everybody should have just joined up of their own accord (and kudos to those who did), but people were living their lives and to just drop everything and run off to war...well, how many of us would do it now?

                        Thanks for your service, leewileyfan!
                        "If I drink whiskey, I'll never get worms!" - Hack Wilson

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Dude Paskert View Post

                          I do remember that he wanted to beat up a player on his team whom he felt had cost him a win...would he have had that desire if the player had been Foxx? He's sure a guy who could easily have been hated, not sure if he really was...can't imagine he was very popular anywhere.
                          Hey, that was today!

                          At least I think that's the incident you're referring to. August 23, 1931: Lefty Grove is going for his 17th consecutive victory.

                          And he loses.

                          1-0.

                          To the St. Louis Browns.

                          Because of an error.

                          Not good. And Lefty was ... pretty darn miffed

                          However - he didn't take it out on Jimmy Moore, the benchwarmer who messed it up for him in LF. He was furious with Al Simmons, who would have been playing there but had a doctor's appointment. And Simmons was no creampuff, so let's be fair about that.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            --Williams was not popular with the press and the fans took a long time to warm up to him, but his teammates were very fond of him. Pete Rose was popular with fans, the media and teammates (at least publically) while active. Cobb and Bonds were unpopular with teammates which is really the bigger problem (Hornsby too, but he was popular with fans and the press to the best of my knowledge). I really don't know much of what Albert Belle's relationship with teammates was.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Dude Paskert View Post
                              Fans of teams whose players were being thrown at regularly by Gibson hated him, while admitting he was an outstanding pitcher and athlete. Cards fans loved his play, but he never had anything approaching a warm fuzzy relationship with his home crowd.
                              Frank Robinson was an aggressive, in your face kind of guy who crowded the plate and then complained about getting hit. He wasn't shy about issuing challenges in the press, like when Clemente had some complaint about playing RF in Memorial and Robinson said Roberto should watch how he played RF and take lessons from it. Frank was sort of like Nails Dykstra in personality, although far more intelligent and mature. As a manager, Frank was known for having his pitchers throw high and tight despite his problems with the HBP as a player.
                              Those are good points. Gibby and Frank Robinson were hard-nosed players. I still don't think "hated" is the right word for the way fans felt about them though. Certainly they didn't attract the irrational degree of hostility that Jeter seems to.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by leecemark View Post
                                --Williams was not popular with the press and the fans took a long time to warm up to him, but his teammates were very fond of him. Pete Rose was popular with fans, the media and teammates (at least publically) while active. Cobb and Bonds were unpopular with teammates which is really the bigger problem (Hornsby too, but he was popular with fans and the press to the best of my knowledge). I really don't know much of what Albert Belle's relationship with teammates was.
                                Bonds did not get along with Kent and didn't really get along with Andy Van Slyke but that isn't to say that all of his major league teammates didn't like him nor should we assume that it is natural to be either liked by all or hated by all.

                                Comment

                                Ad Widget

                                Collapse
                                Working...
                                X