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Small ball MVPS: 1959 Fox, 1960 Groat, 1962 Wills who was best

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  • Small ball MVPS: 1959 Fox, 1960 Groat, 1962 Wills who was best

    Which of these MVPs had the best year?

    1) 1959 Nellie Fox, Chicago White Sox

    2) 1960 Dick Groat, Pittsburgh Pirates

    3) 1962 Maury Wills, Los Anglese Dodgers
    9
    1959 Nellie Fox
    33.33%
    3
    1960 Dick Groat
    0.00%
    0
    1962 Maury Wills
    66.67%
    6
    1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
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  • #2
    I went with Wills because he did set the record, and wasn't a terrible hitter either.

    He was also 2nd in hits, runs scored, and SB%, 3rd in assists, and won a gold glove
    Last edited by 1905 Giants; 08-25-2012, 08:20 PM.
    “There can be no higher law in journalism than to tell the truth and to shame the devil.” Walter Lippmann

    "Fill in any figure you want for that boy (Mantle). Whatever the figure, it's a deal." - Branch Rickey

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    • #3
      They were three weak MVP winners. Fox get's out because his influence was that equal to his partner Luis Aparicio. Groat was not more influential than Maz and Clemente. And Wills didn't have a better season than Tommy Davis, but, he did set a record.
      "I am not too serious about anything. I believe you have to enjoy yourself to get the most out of your ability."-
      George Brett

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      • #4
        Just wondering if any of our esteemed historians have an opinion here? I was actually searching for a thread on Bump Wills when I found this.
        "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

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        • #5
          That Groat MVP has to be one of the worst in history. I guess voters didn't feel like giving Ernie Banks three in a row? Aaron, Mays and F. Robinson all had spectacular seasons also.

          Anyway, I went with Wills, 104 SB at age 29! That's certainly impressive. Rickey had his last 100 plus steal season aged 24, during Coleman's last he was 25. Of course Brock swiped 118 at 35 years old, which is simply insane.
          “I see great things in baseball.”
          Walt Whitman

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by GiambiJuice
            I'll take 1977 Rod Carew over both of these chumps :-)
            You beat me to this. Carew crushed his opponents in 1977. His .388 avg was 52 points higher than runner-up Bostock's .336(another Twin; nice). Carew's 9.7 WAR was 2.1 higher than runner-up Brett's 7.6(positional players in AL). He also led the AL in OPS+ despite not drawing many walks. That's quite impressive.

            As a matter of fact, Carew's 239 hits is the 2nd most hits ever for a player to win an OPS+title. Cobb managed 248 hits in 1911 when he led the league with a 196 OPS+.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by pheasant View Post
              You beat me to this. Carew crushed his opponents in 1977. His .388 avg was 52 points higher than runner-up Bostock's .336(another Twin; nice). Carew's 9.7 WAR was 2.1 higher than runner-up Brett's 7.6(positional players in AL). He also led the AL in OPS+ despite not drawing many walks. That's quite impressive.

              As a matter of fact, Carew's 239 hits is the 2nd most hits ever for a player to win an OPS+title. Cobb managed 248 hits in 1911 when he led the league with a 196 OPS+.
              You must be forgetting Rogers Hornsby's 250 hits in 1922.
              My top 10 players:

              1. Babe Ruth
              2. Barry Bonds
              3. Ty Cobb
              4. Ted Williams
              5. Willie Mays
              6. Alex Rodriguez
              7. Hank Aaron
              8. Honus Wagner
              9. Lou Gehrig
              10. Mickey Mantle

              Comment


              • #8
                Here's what I came up with:

                Led league in both OPS+ and hits in NL since 1901:

                Player year hits OPS+
                Derrek Lee 2005 199 174
                Hank Aaron 1959 223 182
                Stan Musial 1952 194 167
                Stan Musial 1948 230 200
                Stan Musial 1946 228 183
                Tommy Holmes 1945 224 175
                Stan Musial 1944 197 174
                Joe Medwick 1937 237 182
                Chuck Klein 1933 223 176
                Rogers Hornsby 1924 227 222
                Rogers Hornsby 1922 250 207
                Rogers Hornsby 1921 235 191
                Rogers Hornsby 1920 218 185
                Hal Chase 1916 184 155
                Gavvy Cravath 1913 179 172
                Heinie Zimmerman 1912 207 169
                Honus Wagner 1908 201 205
                Cy Seymour 1905 219 182
                Jesse Burkett 1901 226 181

                Comment


                • #9
                  Work is very slow today.

                  Here's another list I came up with:

                  Led league in both OPS+ and hits in AL since 1901:



                  Player year hits OPS+
                  Don Mattingly 1986 238 161
                  Robin Yount 1982 210 166
                  Jim Rice 1978 213 157
                  Rod Carew 1977 239 178
                  Carl Yazstremski 1967 189 193
                  Snuffy Stirnweiss 1945 195 145
                  Ty Cobb 1917 225 209
                  Tris Speaker 1916 211 186
                  Ty Cobb 1915 208 185
                  Ty Cobb 1912 226 200
                  Ty Cobb 1911 248 196
                  Ty Cobb 1909 216 193
                  Ty Cobb 1908 188 169
                  Ty Cobb 1907 212 167
                  Nap Lajoie 1904 208 203
                  Last edited by pheasant; 01-02-2015, 09:37 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 1905 Giants View Post
                    I went with Wills because he did set the record, and wasn't a terrible hitter either.

                    He was also 2nd in hits, runs scored, and SB%, 3rd in assists, and won a gold glove
                    Wills is the obvious choice. He had a legit case for the MVP. Just a dynamic player that year
                    This week's Giant

                    #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
                      Wills is the obvious choice. He had a legit case for the MVP. Just a dynamic player that year
                      Wills was so awesome in '62 that the Giants watered the base paths at Candlestick park and turned it into a swamp!
                      Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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                      • #12
                        I don't see how Fox or Groat have a case over Wills. Wills has the positional advantage over Fox. Granted, Groat hit .325 to Wills' .299. But I'll take Wills 104 SB against only 13 CS. Wills was very disruptive that year. He would have been a blast to watch!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
                          Wills is the obvious choice. He had a legit case for the MVP. Just a dynamic player that year
                          Wow coming from a Giants fan, your comment surprised me. I admire your objectivity.

                          But IMO, Willie Mays was WAAAYYY more valuable than Wills that year. I would have taken Frank Robinson and Hank Aaron over him too.
                          My top 10 players:

                          1. Babe Ruth
                          2. Barry Bonds
                          3. Ty Cobb
                          4. Ted Williams
                          5. Willie Mays
                          6. Alex Rodriguez
                          7. Hank Aaron
                          8. Honus Wagner
                          9. Lou Gehrig
                          10. Mickey Mantle

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
                            Wow coming from a Giants fan, your comment surprised me. I admire your objectivity.

                            But IMO, Willie Mays was WAAAYYY more valuable than Wills that year. I would have taken Frank Robinson and Hank Aaron over him too.
                            Thanks I'm not saying that Wills deserved it hand down. The others have great case. I just don't think that Wills is the bust of a choice that some do.
                            This week's Giant

                            #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
                              Thanks I'm not saying that Wills deserved it hand down. The others have great case. I just don't think that Wills is the bust of a choice that some do.
                              I understand where you're coming from.

                              That reminds me of the Mays vs. Mantle debate in Allen Barra's "Clearing the Bases". He made the claim that the Dodgers would have won more games with Mays in the outfield and replacing Wills with someone on the bench.
                              “There can be no higher law in journalism than to tell the truth and to shame the devil.” Walter Lippmann

                              "Fill in any figure you want for that boy (Mantle). Whatever the figure, it's a deal." - Branch Rickey

                              Comment

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