How hard did Walter Johnson really throw?

[Ben Grimm]

I've often seen threads around the webs talking about how WJ is maybe the best pitcher in baseball history. I'm not going to say yes or no to that because I really don't know. But one thing I've heard often was that he was one of (if not the first) truly hard throwers in the game and that he'd be a dominant strikeout pitcher even today. I just don't get it. Sure he ammassed alot of strikouts, but he also pitched a hell of alot of innings.

I remember watching Ken Burns' series and hearing Ty Cobb mention Johnson's pitches as having a hiss to them and being so fast you couldn't really see it. My question is... Was it that Johnson's pitch was legitimately fast, or was it that compared to the rest of the league at the time, it just seemed fast?

This isn't to knock Big Train, but a 5.8 K:9IP isn't something I'd consider devestating. I mean, just look at his namesake in Randy Johnson for the damage a truly great fastball mixed with a secondary pitch can do.

I guess my overall question is... Where in a current contending team's rotation would a guy like Walter pitch? Ace? Middle of the rotation?

It's only natural that over time a player's legend grows. I'm simply wondering just how good he actually was.

[westsidegrounds]

5.8 K:9IP

hitters didn't strike out as much in those days. if you had 2 strikes on you you'd choke up & just try to make contact. that was SOP. how many hitters do that now?

compare how often the average hitter Ks these days compared to in WJ's time.

[Ben Grimm]

hitters didn't strike out as much in those days. if you had 2 strikes on you you'd choke up & just try to make contact. that was SOP. how many hitters do that now?

compare how often the average hitter Ks these days compared to in WJ's time.

First off, thanks for responding. I try not to put something up that nobody replies to.

Secondly, I absolutely agree with the talk of shortening the swings. But a strikeout pitcher is a strikeout pitcher. And if he was as "devestating" as many people believe, he'd overcome that. The '50s, '60s and '70s are littered with pitchers with better K rates and that was before today's buggy-whip bats.

I'm simply wondering if his legend is outgrowing his true ability. It certainly wouldn't be the first time in pro sports.

[westsidegrounds]

these are just examples, not meant to be proof of anything but just to show context:

Walter Johnson era:

1912 - Danny Moeller leads league with 113K; Jimmy Austin was runner-up with 86K; five of the Top Ten strikeout batters had fewer than 70K
1921 - Bob Meusel leads league with 88K

Randy Johnson era:

1992 - Dean Palmer leads league with 154K; nobody in the Top Ten has as few as 113K
2002 - Jose Hernandez leads league with 188K

(Incidentally, I'm not claiming batters are worse today. But they approach an at bat very differently than they did in Walter's day.)

[Ben Grimm]

If there was a rep line for posters, you'd get a +1 from me. Thanks for actually looking into it, and I'll respond either late tonight or early tomorrow. As it is, my chinese food just got here and smells oh so good. Sweet n sour pork, egg roll, etc... mmmm good.

[brett]

Keep in mind that with the approach of putting the ball in play, getting 2 strikes on a batter might have been the rough equivalent of getting a strikeout because the batter was going to change his approach to something much less likely to succeed in order to avoid the K.

I have read posts that some methods timed Johnson at 90 miles per hour. He may not have had the same moving pitches as the later generation, but his arm was so long that with the sidearm delivery it worked much the same way because the pitch was released from a hand that was on line with the batters head.

[willshad]

The speed of his pitches isnt really important in determining whether he was a great pitcher or not. Did Maddux have a great fastball or get a ton of strikeouts?

Johnson had a 147 ERA+ in almost 6000 innings pitched. He must have had something going for him. Whether he would be Randy Johnson or Greg Maddux in the modern game isnt as important as saying he would be an all time great in any era.

[Tyrus4189Cobb]

There are many quotes on Walter's speed, my favorite being Birdie Cree's, "When the arms start forward, swing."

Johnson pitched mostly before the power game. The name of the game was contact, even if it meant slap singles or bunts.
When it comes to Johnson's K/9IP, pitchers were usually in the 2 or 3 range. Johnson was in the top ten from 1908-1926 except 1909.

[leewileyfan]

My father, born in 1895, saw Walter Johnson pitch many times. He introduced me to the game in the very late 1930s. Conversations, especially in the summer September often turned to baseball at my maternal grandfather's house. He was born in 1859. Gramps was born in Washington, D.C., was a catcher, and last caught around 1884 or '85. That was semi-pro ball in the Baltimore-D.C. circuit.

My father was born in Lower Manhattan and raised in Queens, playing semi-pro ball with and against Specs Toporcer, Tony Cuccinello, and Charlie Niebergall, all who spent some time in MLB Dad was scouted by the Chicago Cubs overseas, when he was playing for a Rainbow Division team in France in 1918, after hostilities and before rotation home. A Cub scout had also been drafted.

Whenever Walter Johnson was mentioned, "mastery" was the word [or some variation]. My dad took me to see Bob Feller; and he thought Johnson was faster and more effective, with mastery of his control. Said Johnson's fastball was "live" - it had movement, down or away.

Some time later, 1945 or '46, I think, Yankee Stadium had a special treat between games of a doubleheader, I believe. Walter Johnson pitched about 20 or 30 ptches to Babe Ruth, with Mickey Cochrane behind the plate. Ruth put a few over the 344' marker, which was great for the fans. But I think the fans were just as thrilled to see the "Big Train" slinging them in with a sidearm delivery as smooth as silk.

I believe the secret to Johnson's success was a certain fluidity of motion, where the sidearm delivery was whip-like, but not exaggerated [like Ewell Blackwell's motion] nor herky-jerky like Dontrelle's was.

I mention the family stuff [and acquaintances] for context. Lots of the conversations I sat wide-eyed listening to were among people who knew the game pretty darn well.

[CTaka]

There are many quotes on Walter's speed, my favorite being Birdie Cree's, "When the arms start forward, swing."

Johnson pitched mostly before the power game. The name of the game was contact, even if it meant slap singles or bunts.
When it comes to Johnson's K/9IP, pitchers were usually in the 2 or 3 range. Johnson was in the top ten from 1908-1926 except 1909.

Just to clarify, it was 1920 that Johnson was not in the top ten in K/9IP; he finished sixth in 1909. Johnson was not just in the top ten 18 times in 19 years, he was in the top five for 16 of those 19 years, including leading the league seven times.

While you can't compare the K/9IP numbers from the Big Train's era when hitters rarely struck out to the Big Unit's era, Walter Johnson was clearly a dominant strikeout pitcher when comparing him to his peers.

[TonyK]

I recommend reading Walter Johnson: Baseball's Big Train by his grandson Henry Thomas. It covers in detail Johnson's fastball and why he dominated for two decades.

I loved having his '13 season on my Sims fantasy teams: 36-7, 1.14 ERA, 11 Shutouts, and 0.78 WHIP. Few, if any, pitchers can match those numbers, and none of them come close to his .261 average that season with 5 doubles and 6 triples. Washington used him sometimes as a pinch hitter or a reliever too.

[westsidegrounds]

I recommend reading Walter Johnson: Baseball's Big Train by his grandson Henry Thomas. It covers in detail Johnson's fastball and why he dominated for two decades.

I loved having his '13 season on my Sims fantasy teams: 36-7, 1.14 ERA, 11 Shutouts, and 0.78 WHIP. Few, if any, pitchers can match those numbers, and none of them come close to his .261 average that season with 5 doubles and 6 triples. Washington used him sometimes as a pinch hitter.

Hard to see how anyone could add more value to a team than Walter did that year. With him, the Nats were 90-64, runners-up for the pennant. When anybody else got the ball, they were 54-57.

[White Knight]

My father, born in 1895, saw Walter Johnson pitch many times. He introduced me to the game in the very late 1930s. Conversations, especially in the summer September often turned to baseball at my maternal grandfather's house. He was born in 1859. Gramps was born in Washington, D.C., was a catcher, and last caught around 1884 or '85. That was semi-pro ball in the Baltimore-D.C. circuit.

My father was born in Lower Manhattan and raised in Queens, playing semi-pro ball with and against Specs Toporcer, Tony Cuccinello, and Charlie Niebergall, all who spent some time in MLB Dad was scouted by the Chicago Cubs overseas, when he was playing for a Rainbow Division team in France in 1918, after hostilities and before rotation home. A Cub scout had also been drafted.

Whenever Walter Johnson was mentioned, "mastery" was the word [or some variation]. My dad took me to see Bob Feller; and he thought Johnson was faster and more effective, with mastery of his control. Said Johnson's fastball was "live" - it had movement, down or away.

Some time later, 1945 or '46, I think, Yankee Stadium had a special treat between games of a doubleheader, I believe. Walter Johnson pitched about 20 or 30 ptches to Babe Ruth, with Mickey Cochrane behind the plate. Ruth put a few over the 344' marker, which was great for the fans. But I think the fans were just as thrilled to see the "Big Train" slinging them in with a sidearm delivery as smooth as silk.

I believe the secret to Johnson's success was a certain fluidity of motion, where the sidearm delivery was whip-like, but not exaggerated [like Ewell Blackwell's motion] nor herky-jerky like Dontrelle's was.

I mention the family stuff [and acquaintances] for context. Lots of the conversations I sat wide-eyed listening to were among people who knew the game pretty darn well.

Outstanding post. I love hearing about how people thought of the players back then who actually seen them play.

[Buzzaldrin]

Here's how the batters approach to strikeouts (and the pitchers approach to them) has changed over the years. Herb Score, in 1955, became the first guy to have 9 K's/9 IP for a season. He repeated that feat in 1956. The record he broke was Hal Newhouser's mark of 8.45 from 1946 (and people think of Feller for strikeouts that year!). Other than Hugh Daily's and Dupee Shaw's marks in the 1884 Union Association (which I view skeptically), Newhouser's mark was the best from 1871-1954. He stands now, though, at #284 on the list, meaning there have been 253 seasons of better K/IP since 1955. Johnson's, Wood's, Vance's, and especially Waddell's marks seem seriously amazing when put into that context.

[Ubiquitous]

Walter pitched to Babe in 1942. He threw 17 pitches to Ruth and on the 5th one he hit it into the right field stands at Yankee Stadium.

A year later Babe would square off against Ted in a home run hitting exhibition. Babe didn't hit any of them out and I think even fouled one off his foot.