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How come Rajah doesn't get enough love?

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  • How come Rajah doesn't get enough love?

    He was Ted Williams before Ted Williams. I was searching for the Percentage Triple Crown (BA, OBP and SLG) and the top players to have accomplished it goes like this:

    1. Roger Hornsby --- 7 Times
    2. Ted Williams --- 5 Times
    3. Honus Wagner --- 4 Times
    4. Ty Cobb --- 3 Times
    5. Nap Lajoie --- 2 Times
    (Tied). Stan Musial --- 2 Times
    (Tied). Barry Bonds --- 2 Times

    This guy owned this stat. He was the NL version of Babe Ruth. I already know BBF's position for Rajah, and being top 15 isn't shabby. The thing is, why we rate Teddy Ballgame so high, when this guy, due to position, can compare favorably to him?
    "I am not too serious about anything. I believe you have to enjoy yourself to get the most out of your ability."-
    George Brett

  • #2
    Originally posted by yankillaz View Post
    He was Ted Williams before Ted Williams. I was searching for the Percentage Triple Crown (BA, OBP and SLG) and the top players to have accomplished it goes like this:

    1. Roger Hornsby --- 7 Times
    2. Ted Williams --- 5 Times
    3. Honus Wagner --- 4 Times
    4. Ty Cobb --- 3 Times
    5. Nap Lajoie --- 2 Times
    (Tied). Stan Musial --- 2 Times
    (Tied). Barry Bonds --- 2 Times

    This guy owned this stat. He was the NL version of Babe Ruth. I already know BBF's position for Rajah, and being top 15 isn't shabby. The thing is, why we rate Teddy Ballgame so high, when this guy, due to position, can compare favorably to him?
    Probably one of the reasons, he was not MR. nice guy.
    Your also going to hear he had problems with pop fiys and he left the game at an early age.
    What you won't hear much of is the, not mr. nice guy bit but I'm sure that plays a part with some posters judging and ranking Hornsby.

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    • #3
      He was not a Mr. Nice Guy, I know this, but neither were Ted Williams nor Ty Cobb. His defense wasn't the best ever, but neither was Teddy Ballgame's. Here in BBF we have Teddy as a top 5 player (Correct me if I'm wrong), and Rajah is below according to some people here, to Joe Morgan.
      "I am not too serious about anything. I believe you have to enjoy yourself to get the most out of your ability."-
      George Brett

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by yankillaz View Post
        He was not a Mr. Nice Guy, I know this, but neither were Ted Williams nor Ty Cobb. His defense wasn't the best ever, but neither was Teddy Ballgame's. Here in BBF we have Teddy as a top 5 player (Correct me if I'm wrong), and Rajah is below according to some people here, to Joe Morgan.
        I get that but Hornsby seems to be more disliked. I'm sure some consider Ty's long career and Ted's missing years in the service.
        I have Hornsby high on the list when the subject is strictly hitting.
        A right handed hitter, when the majority of pitchers were right handed.............and he bats .358.
        All those left handers were not just born better hitters, RH hitting Hornsby at a disadvantage and he has the second highest career batting average.

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        • #5
          Hornsby is way underrated. And the more I think about it, I might have him underrated even though I have him as a top 10 player ever. Had Babe Ruth never played, Hornsby would be a much more common of name now. There would have been more articles about him back in the 1920s. Hornsby would be rated higher now. As it was, Hornsby improved his game more during the Live Ball era than anyone else, including Babe Ruth(Ruth already showed his greatness in the Dead Ball era). 7 percentage triple crowns for a slick-fielding 2nd baseman is outrageous. I blame Babe Ruth first, then his personality 2nd for Hornsby being underrated. He was absolutely an amazing player. In 1922, everyone remembers his triple crown year(traditional triple crown and percentage triple crown). There are two things that don't get mentioned about that crazy year. The first thing is that he also set the NL record that year in home runs. The 2nd is that despite his modest BB total of only 65(only 9.2% of PA=BB), he still posted an outrageous 207 OPS+. How many players since 1920 have a BB rate under 10%, yet an OPS+ above 200? I doubt anybody did that in the Live Ball era ever. Another funny thing about Hornsby is that he led the league in OPS+ with 4 different teams over a 5 year span. It didn't seem to matter where he played. He could still rip the cover off of the ball. Hornsby might be a top 5 hitter ever, which is unthinkable for 2nd baseman. They sure threw away the mold when the made Hornsby. I think there's a reasonable argument to put Hornsby in the top 5 all-time for all position players.

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          • #6
            Thank you. Let the campaign begin!!! Let's just hope we don't "sweat" him so much that he becomes overrated.
            "I am not too serious about anything. I believe you have to enjoy yourself to get the most out of your ability."-
            George Brett

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            • #7
              I don't see how you consider him to be underrated, when for the better part of fifty years, he was considered to be the greatest right handed hitter in baseball history.
              Your Second Base Coach
              Garvey, Lopes, Russell, and Cey started 833 times and the Dodgers went 498-335, for a .598 winning percentage. That’s equal to a team going 97-65 over a season. On those occasions when at least one of them missed his start, the Dodgers were 306-267-1, which is a .534 clip. That works out to a team going 87-75. So having all four of them added 10 wins to the Dodgers per year.
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5hCIvMule0

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Second Base Coach View Post
                I don't see how you consider him to be underrated, when for the better part of fifty years, he was considered to be the greatest right handed hitter in baseball history.
                Only 50 years? Isn't he still considered to be the greatest right handed hitter? Who is ahead of him? Pujols is great, but he still needs a few more very good seasons, in my opinion, to surpass Hornsby.

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                • #9
                  Big Ron, you just took the words out of my fingertips. He's the greatest right-handed hitter ever. Pujols has to finish with a lifetime BA over .330 to try to match him, and Pujols seems to go downhill now.

                  Unless, JR Hart and Roy Hobbs want to say that Joe Dimaggio is the best right handed hitter ever. (Not out of the question)
                  "I am not too serious about anything. I believe you have to enjoy yourself to get the most out of your ability."-
                  George Brett

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hornsby's percentage of votes to get elected to the Hall of Fame:
                    1936 46.5%
                    1937 26.4%
                    1938 17.6%
                    1939 64.2% finished behind Sisler, Collins, Keeler, and Waddell
                    1942 78.1%

                    Yes, Hornsby was underrated. The guy finished 3rd in the Black Ink test. Talk about dominance.
                    Also, how did Hornsby not win the MVP in 1924? .424/.507/.696 for a 2nd baseman is sick. As a matter of fact, only Ruth ever topped that year's 12.0 WAR as a positional player.

                    Hornsby posted a 9.0 WAR or better 8 times. Only Ruth with 10 seasons is better. Cobb and Gehrig had 5 such seasons. Willie Mays had 7 such seasons. Dimaggio had 0 seasons such seasons.

                    We are talking about a guy that was regularly winning the percentage triple crown while being among the leader in both putouts and assists as a 2nd baseman. And this same man barely received enough votes to enter the Hall of Fame on his 5th attempt.

                    Like I said before, I blame Ruth. Cobb still received a boatload of votes, despite his personality. Hornsby's personality would be his 2nd reason, however.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I just posted this on another thread but it applies here too:

                      From Baseball Almanac:
                      "But I'll tell you one guy nobody liked and that was our manager Rogers Hornsby. Now there was a real p-r-i-c-k." - Browns pitcher Les Tietje
                      "He was frank to the point of being cruel and as subtle as a belch." - Sportswriter Lee Allen
                      “There can be no higher law in journalism than to tell the truth and to shame the devil.” Walter Lippmann

                      "Fill in any figure you want for that boy (Mantle). Whatever the figure, it's a deal." - Branch Rickey

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by BigRon View Post
                        Only 50 years? Isn't he still considered to be the greatest right handed hitter? Who is ahead of him? Pujols is great, but he still needs a few more very good seasons, in my opinion, to surpass Hornsby.
                        I think Aaron could have an argument depending how much you favor longevity, and if you believe he played against significantly stronger competition. If you don't believe he did, then he obviously has no case. Neither does Pujols.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I don't think he's underrated. He's widely considered the best second basemen ever, and is widely considered one of the five best hitters ever. He's also regarded by most as the best right handed hitter ever. He seems very highly regarded to me.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by fenrir View Post
                            I don't think he's underrated. He's widely considered the best second basemen ever, and is widely considered one of the five best hitters ever. He's also regarded by most as the best right handed hitter ever. He seems very highly regarded to me.
                            Where? Is he as highly regarded as Ted Williams? By pure stats, the best hitters ever have been Ruth, Hornsby, Cobb, Williams and Gehrig. Unless you want to place Joe Jackson in the conversation. And Rajah was a middle infielder. I'm telling you, there's no love. Go to baseball-reference for instance. You have Ruth, Cobb, Gehrig and Williams as top 5 hitters along with Mays, something I don't complain. But they have Rajah #9. I must admit that the EloRater keeps changing, but he's not widely respected as the others, and you have in him sheer dominance of advanced hitting stats only seen in Ruth and Williams, but at a premier position.
                            "I am not too serious about anything. I believe you have to enjoy yourself to get the most out of your ability."-
                            George Brett

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by yankillaz View Post
                              Big Ron, you just took the words out of my fingertips. He's the greatest right-handed hitter ever. Pujols has to finish with a lifetime BA over .330 to try to match him, and Pujols seems to go downhill now.

                              Unless, JR Hart and Roy Hobbs want to say that Joe Dimaggio is the best right handed hitter ever. (Not out of the question)
                              DiMaggio is in the top 5 RHH, going by strictly batting. I don't underrate the Rahjah. Probably the best RHH ever and certainly the best 2b ever.
                              This week's Giant

                              #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

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