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  • #31
    Originally posted by icee82 View Post
    I have written to several of the Reds from his managerial years in Cincinnati and with the exception of one player, everyone despised him and even today that has not subsided. Several of them had very derogatory things to say about him. I would assume that he had communication issues for his entire career.
    I don't think he had communication issues per se, he was actually too blunt. If he hated you, you knew it; at least he was not a phony back stabber.

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    • #32
      I never know what to think of these managers like John McGraw or Roger Hornsby. I always hear about how mean they were. What the heck did they do to some of these guys who played for em. When I think of players in those days I think of tough gritty type of players but alot of these guys have some real hatred for those two managers.

      I always liked Hornsby, then again if he was my manager I probably wouldn't like him so much, but I don't think I've ever read a story about him that wasn't interesting.
      "(Shoeless Joe Jackson's fall from grace is one of the real tragedies of baseball. I always thought he was more sinned against than sinning." -- Connie Mack

      "I have the ultimate respect for Whitesox fans. They were as miserable as the Cubs and Redsox fans ever were but always had the good decency to keep it to themselves. And when they finally won the World Series, they celebrated without annoying every other fan in the country."--Jim Caple, ESPN (Jan. 12, 2011)

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      • #33
        Originally posted by BigRon View Post
        Only 50 years? Isn't he still considered to be the greatest right handed hitter? Who is ahead of him? Pujols is great, but he still needs a few more very good seasons, in my opinion, to surpass Hornsby.
        If you could watch Pujols side by side with Hornsby for a game, on opposing teams in the same game, it'd resemble Bill Tilden facing Roger Federer. (There is plenty of footage of Tilden from the 20's, he looks frail, weak, unadroit, and pretty awkward). Most ballplayers did then, too. What I've seen or Hornsby is a guy with an akward stance and approximates average speed to first and on the bases for today's players. (But much faster than average in a league on whites only mainly from the Eastern US). If Albert and Rajah could see them mano a mano in real time for a season, we'd probably all laugh that we constantly perpetuate the fallacy that players from 75 or 100 years ago could hold a candle to today's super athletes.

        Raw numbers mean nothing when comparing players from vastly different eras. All the best anecdotal and statistical evidence we have leads to the conclusion that Albert's 168 OPS+ from 2001-2012 is vastly superior than Hornsby's 175 OPS+ from 1915-37.
        Last edited by csh19792001; 10-20-2012, 09:34 PM.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by csh19792001 View Post
          If you could watch Pujols side by side with Hornsby for a game, on opposing teams in the same game, it'd resemble Bill Tilden facing Roger Federer. (There is plenty of footage of Tilden from the 20's, he looks frail, weak, unadroit, and pretty awkward). Most ballplayers did then, too. What I've seen or Hornsby is a guy with an akward stance and approximates average speed to first and on the bases for today's players. (But much faster than average in a league on whites only mainly from the Eastern US). If Albert and Rajah could see them mano a mano in real time for a season, we'd probably all laugh that we constantly perpetuate the fallacy that players from 75 or 100 years ago could hold a candle to today's super athletes.

          Raw numbers mean nothing when comparing players from vastly different eras. All the best anecdotal and statistical evidence we have leads to the conclusion that Albert's 168 OPS+ from 2001-2012 is vastly superior than Hornsby's 175 OPS+ from 1915-37.
          I don't know what's more impressive: the fact that you own a time machine and have actually seen Pujols and Hornsby in the same game, or the fact that human evolution is so fast that men went from frail and weak, to super athletes in just 80 years! I shudder to think how frail and weak the guys from the 1870s were, compared to Hornsby. It's a wonder they had the strength to even get out of bed! Look at Gehrig and Foxx, those weaklings couldn't even make contact with today's fastball! They can't hold a candle to the heavily muscled, super conditioned top hitters of today, such as Prince Fielder , Miguel Cabrera, and Pablo Sandoval.
          Last edited by willshad; 10-20-2012, 09:50 PM.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by willshad View Post
            I don't know what's more impressive: the fact that you own a time machine and have actually seen Pujols and Hornsby in the same game, or the fact that human evolution is so fast that men went from frail and weak, to super athletes in just 80 years! I shudder to think how frail and weak the guys from the 1870s were, compared to Hornsby. It's a wonder they had the strength to even get out of bed! Look at Gehrig and Foxx, those weaklings couldn't even make contact with today's fastball! They can't hold a candle to the heavily muscled, super conditioned top hitters of today, such as Prince Fielder , Miguel Cabrera, and Pablo Sandoval.
            I have watched Pablo Sandoval since 2008 when he was in the Cal League and he is a good athlete despite his weight issues. I took my wife to a San Jose Giants game in 2008. She knows nothing about baseball. She watched Sandoval go all out to stretch a single into a double. She remarked, "He runs very well for a stout guy!" One thing about Sandoval is that he is very light on his feet and has very good quickness. He's not that fast really but if there was a footrace between Sandoval, Fielder, and Cabrera, Sandoval would win easily. Also, Sandoval was a catcher in the minors and played some catcher early in his major league career. I can't imagine Fielder or Cabrera playing catcher. Sandoval reminds me a bit of Jerone Bettis actually.
            Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
              I have watched Pablo Sandoval since 2008 when he was in the Cal League and he is a good athlete despite his weight issues. I took my wife to a San Jose Giants game in 2008. She knows nothing about baseball. She watched Sandoval go all out to stretch a single into a double. She remarked, "He runs very well for a stout guy!" One thing about Sandoval is that he is very light on his feet and has very good quickness. He's not that fast really but if there was a footrace between Sandoval, Fielder, and Cabrera, Sandoval would win easily. Also, Sandoval was a catcher in the minors and played some catcher early in his major league career. I can't imagine Fielder or Cabrera playing catcher. Sandoval reminds me a bit of Jerone Bettis actually.
              I meant no offense to Sandoval. I'm sure he a good athlete for his size. My point was that is is beyond ridiculous to call today's athlete a 'super athlete' when compared to men just 80 years ago. They could run just as fast, throw just as far, and hit the ball just as hard. Guys like Gehrig and Foxx were as good as an athlete as any who ever played the game. Likewise, Hornsby was a better hitter than Pujols, despite his 'awkward stance' (what that has to do with being a great hitter, I have no idea).

              csh19792001's post was so ridiculous, I honestly could not tell if it was all meant to be sarcastic or not.
              Last edited by willshad; 10-21-2012, 12:27 AM.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by willshad View Post
                . . . . the fact that human evolution is so fast that men went from frail and weak, to super athletes in just 80 years . . . .
                I'm an idiot for even sticking a toe in these waters, but evolution is just a red herring. My wife is under 5' tall; her younger brother is well over 6'. The reason is that she didn't drink the milk that was provided during the Japanese occupation, and her brother did. You can usually pretty much tell whether someone here was born after the war by looking at them.
                Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

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                • #38
                  double post
                  Last edited by Jackaroo Dave; 10-21-2012, 05:30 AM.
                  Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Jackaroo Dave View Post
                    I'm an idiot for even sticking a toe in these waters, but evolution is just a red herring. My wife is under 5' tall; her younger brother is well over 6'. The reason is that she didn't drink the milk that was provided during the Japanese occupation, and her brother did. You can usually pretty much tell whether someone here was born after the war by looking at them.
                    There you go. it's all about the milk.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by willshad View Post
                      I meant no offense to Sandoval. I'm sure he a good athlete for his size. My point was that is is beyond ridiculous to call today's athlete a 'super athlete' when compared to men just 80 years ago. They could run just as fast, throw just as far, and hit the ball just as hard. Guys like Gehrig and Foxx were as good as an athlete as any who ever played the game. Likewise, Hornsby was a better hitter than Pujols, despite his 'awkward stance' (what that has to do with being a great hitter, I have no idea).

                      csh19792001's post was so ridiculous, I honestly could not tell if it was all meant to be sarcastic or not.
                      You do not know this. Statistics don't tell the whole story.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by willshad View Post
                        There you go. it's all about the milk.
                        A prescient idiot, but an idiot nonetheless.
                        Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

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                        • #42
                          BTW: where does the nickname Rajah come from?
                          I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by willshad View Post

                            csh19792001's post was so ridiculous, I honestly could not tell if it was all meant to be sarcastic or not.
                            I didn't find his post ridiculous at all. If two players have fairly similar OPS+ figures, then to assert that the one that plays in the modern era, in an integrated league that includes players from a significantly larger talent pool would probably be the better player than the one that started his career almost a hundred years ago and played in a very segregated league which drew from a very limited talent pool is not unreasonable at all. I find csh's assertion to be a fair argument. I'm not sure what you find to be so ridiculous; is it the difference in the OPS+? What if they had the exact same OPS+, then who would be the better hitter?

                            You consistently ridicule and belittle other posters whenever they do not agree with your almighty views. You say things like "so ridiculous", "not even worth arguing over", "nothing to talk about", etc etc.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Joltin' Joe View Post
                              I didn't find his post ridiculous at all. If two players have fairly similar OPS+ figures, then to assert that the one that plays in the modern era, in an integrated league that includes players from a significantly larger talent pool would probably be the better player than the one that started his career almost a hundred years ago and played in a very segregated league which drew from a very limited talent pool is not unreasonable at all. I find csh's assertion to be a fair argument. I'm not sure what you find to be so ridiculous; is it the difference in the OPS+? What if they had the exact same OPS+, then who would be the better hitter?

                              You consistently ridicule and belittle other posters whenever they do not agree with your almighty views. You say things like "so ridiculous", "not even worth arguing over", "nothing to talk about", etc etc.
                              I agree with that.

                              however it doesn't get really close if you consider that pujols has yet to decline at hornsby is a middle IF guy.

                              if it is all said and done albert will probably have a 160 OPS+ and played 30% of his games a DH. then it will not be really close.
                              I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by dominik View Post
                                I agree with that.

                                however it doesn't get really close if you consider that pujols has yet to decline at hornsby is a middle IF guy.

                                if it is all said and done albert will probably have a 160 OPS+ and played 30% of his games a DH. then it will not be really close.
                                It should be an eye opener that no player today who isn't a steroid user can keep a career OPS+ of 160 or higher. Are these hitters really that inferior to those of yesteryear?
                                Last edited by fenrir; 10-21-2012, 02:55 PM.

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