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How come Rajah doesn't get enough love?

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  • [QUOTE=Honus Wagner Rules;2080268]Who decides the level of respect a ballplayer deserves?[/QUOTE

    NOBODY, with infallible certitude. I suppose that's why the poster raised the question. The poster has observed, many denigrating evaluations of Rajah, either personality-based or myth based. There is enough of that, even here on BBF, to allow a reasonable person to ask why. [Unless we are free only to discuss in absolutes].

    espite all this, Hornsby gets plenty of respect here at BBF. He always wins every time we have All-time Second Baseman polls. He's regarded as the greatest right handed hitter ever. In Bill Burgess' All-Time Hitter poll, Hornsby finished 5th behind only Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Ty Cobb, and Lou Gehrig. Shoot he was even mentioned By Howard Cunningham in an episode of Happy Days when Fonzi was having issues teaching his high school automotive class.
    The question may have relevance for those inquiring minds less familiar with BBF [at large], Bill Burgess, or the Fonz. [Bill James, even].

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Joltin' Joe View Post
      So how do you seem to always know which league is stronger than another? Obviously it is not due to the timeline theory as you do not believe in that as you think the best hitters ever played in the 1930s. This is a serious question as you always seem to be so firm in how one league or era is much stronger than another.
      I said 'the hitters' in Thomas' leagues were stronger overall. What more proof do you need for showing better hitters than higher scoring?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Tyrus4189Cobb View Post
        This thread seems to be going across the board but I'm going to redirect it back to Hornsby:

        Lack of integration defintely hurts Rajah, but it seems like I don't buy into it as much as the de facto consensus of BBF. If nonwhites were allowed to play, you add varying talent. Sure, Rajah faces the likes of Satchel Paige. Wouldn't he also face mediocre pitchers? Terrible pitchers? I don't understand this implicated notion that opening the doors for nonwhites means every pre-integration player would have suffered miserably.

        Look at players today. Couldn't you argue that baseball isn't facing top competition because other top athletes are going to other sports? Doesn't that open the gates for lesser players? In Hornsby's time, football and hockey and basketball and lacrosse and tiddlywinks were virtually unheard of.

        It just seems like this site puts WAY too much stock into integration. At least more than I think is necessary.
        I have made this exact point before. Only in theory does integration ONLY allow the BEST black players to enter the major leagues. In reality, you will end up with a mix of great players, good ones, and terrible ones. This is much like how only the BEST minor leaguers are promoted into the majors. Just because they were great in the minors, that does not mean they will be stars in the major leagues.

        To me, it really doesn't matter if you are getting the talent from the Negro Leagues, the minor leagues, Japan, The Domincan Republic, or Mars. You will still end up with the same mixture of superstars, stars, average players, OK ones, bad ones, and guys who don't last. The 'league quality' will remain about the same.
        Last edited by willshad; 10-25-2012, 01:40 AM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by willshad View Post
          I said 'the hitters' in Thomas' leagues were stronger overall. What more proof do you need for showing better hitters than higher scoring?
          That's exactly what I thought. So you equate a higher scoring environment to better hitters. Which explains why you think the best hitters ever played in 1930. :headbeat:

          Originally posted by willshad View Post
          What more proof do you need for showing better hitters than higher scoring?
          No worries, you have provided all the proof we need.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by willshad View Post
            To me, it really doesn't matter if you are getting the talent from the Negro Leagues, the minor leagues, Japan, The Domincan Republic, or Mars. You will still end up with the same mixture of superstars, stars, average players, OK ones, bad ones, and guys who don't last. The 'league quality' will remain about the same.
            Can you provide some evidence to support this thesis--because it seems to fly in the face of intuition. I feel that if I have more available choices with the same quality of alternatives, I'll be able to make better ones.

            For example, you have a jar filled with quarters, nickels, and dimes. You have to choose a certain number of coins, more than the number of quarters. Then someone comes along with another jar filled with quarters, nickels, and dimes. Now you can make your choices from either jar. Won't you be richer for the second jar?
            Last edited by Jackaroo Dave; 10-25-2012, 04:50 AM.
            Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

            Comment


            • Originally posted by willshad View Post

              To me, it really doesn't matter if you are getting the talent from the Negro Leagues, the minor leagues, Japan, The Domincan Republic, or Mars. You will still end up with the same mixture of superstars, stars, average players, OK ones, bad ones, and guys who don't last. The 'league quality' will remain about the same.
              This may be the most ridiculous post I have ever seen on BF. To paraphrase YOU, "it's so ridiculous, I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic or not".

              I think you should be a GM of a MLB team. You can just sign players from your own hometown. This way you don't need scouts to travel around and you personally can check out every player. You will save your team millions of dollars and laugh at the other GM's who are sending scouts all over the planet looking for players. They are so stupid as you very well know that the league quality remains the same regardless of the size of the talent pool.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Jackaroo Dave View Post
                For example, you have a jar filled with quarters, nickels, and dimes. You have to choose a certain number of coins, more than the number of quarters. Then someone comes along with another jar filled with quarters, nickels, and dimes. Now you can make your choices from either jar. Won't you be richer for the second jar?
                Not if both have the same amount of of quarters, nickels, and dimes and others are choosing from the same pile. Sure, there are more available quarters, but you also end up being stuck with more nickels and dimes. The second jar isn't a new magical pool available only to you.

                I'm not saying I agree with willshad in that league quality remains the same. I just don't buy into it nearly as much as some.
                "Allen Sutton Sothoron pitched his initials off today."--1920s article

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Tyrus4189Cobb View Post
                  Not if both have the same amount of of quarters, nickels, and dimes and others are choosing from the same pile. Sure, there are more available quarters, but you also end up being stuck with more nickels and dimes. The second jar isn't a new magical pool available only to you.
                  Ty, there is a fatal flaw in that logic; the amount of nickels, dimes, and quarters "that you are stuck with" are not the same.

                  Let's say you are allowed to pick out 10 coins from the pile, you can pick any 10 that you want.

                  You have Pile #1 called the East Coast Segregated Pile, it contains 20 coins: 15 nickels, 4 dimes, and 1 quarter. You obviously select 1 quarter, 4 dimes, and 5 nickels for a total of $0.75.

                  You have Pile #2 called the US Segregated Pile, it contains 60 coins, 45 nickels, 12 dimes, and 3 quarters. You obviously select 3 quarters and 7 dimes for a total of $1.45

                  You have Pile #3 called the US Integrated Pile, it contains 90 coins, 67 nickels, 18 dimes, and 5 quarters. You obviously select 5 quarters and 5 dimes for a tatal of $1.75

                  You have Pile #4 called the Planet Pile, it contains 180 coins, 135 nickels, 36 dimes, and 9 quarters. You obviously select 9 quarters and 1 dime for a total of $2.35.


                  Originally posted by Tyrus4189Cobb View Post
                  Sure, there are more available quarters, but you also end up being stuck with more nickels and dimes.
                  Ty, you hit the nail right on the head with the first half of your sentence, but you missed the point with the latter half. You are totally correct that the bigger the pile, the more quarters are available for you to pick; but you will not be stuck with more nickels and dimes, because you will not choose them until/unless you run out of quarters to pocket.
                  Last edited by Joltin' Joe; 10-25-2012, 07:06 AM.

                  Comment


                  • You will be stuck with more nickels and times because you are going to run out of quarters to pocket. Other teams are taking quarters. The piles you mention aren't yours alone. No team has a monopoly on one set of people.

                    If every team in the 1920s took from the pile, they end up getting stuck with more nickels than quarters. It's unavoidable. In that case Hornsby plays with more lesser players than great players. For every time he is facing Smoky Joe Williams, he is facing two or more average or lesser players.

                    I'm still on board with the logic. If Smoky Joe Williams is allowed to play, he replaces a team's dumpy third starter and now Hornsby faces a stronger rotation in the series. What I'm trying to say is that it isn't going to blast him out of the league and set him back to #7 in the all-time rankings, which is what various posters seem to imply
                    "Allen Sutton Sothoron pitched his initials off today."--1920s article

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Tyrus4189Cobb View Post
                      You will be stuck with more nickels and times because you are going to run out of quarters to pocket. Other teams are taking quarters. The piles you mention aren't yours alone. No team has a monopoly on one set of people.
                      We are not talking about individual teams, we are talking about the entire MLB league. The one that is picking the 10 coins in my example is not an individual team but the entire league. The pile I mention are mine(MLB) alone.

                      We are discussing the strength and the talent of the entire MLB league, not which team in the MLB has the best GM and or has the best scouts, the highest budget, or end up grabbing the most quarters.

                      And yes, the MLB does have a natural monopoly, most definitely in the US. As for worldwide, other than the Japanese League, they have a near monopolistic Oligopoly.
                      Last edited by Joltin' Joe; 10-25-2012, 07:54 AM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Joltin' Joe View Post
                        We are not talking about individual teams, we are talking about the entire MLB league. The one that is picking the 10 coins in my example is not an individual team but the entire league. The pile I mention are mine(MLB) alone.

                        We are discussing the strength and the talent of the entire MLB league, not which team in the MLB has the best GM and or has the best scouts, the highest budget, or end up grabbing the most quarters.
                        Fair enough. As I said, I'm still on board only not to the extent of others I've seen on this site.

                        Originally posted by Joltin' Joe View Post
                        And yes, the MLB does have a natural monopoly, most definitely in the US. As for worldwide, other than the Japanese League, they have a near monopolistic Oligopoly.
                        It has a monopoly on baseball players, not athletes. You could argue that there is a lack of a greater pool of athletes in today's game. I don't see anyone saying Mike Trout wouldn't have as great a year had he played with athletes who pursued baseball and not the growing NFL, NBA, or NHL. As soon as Hornsby pops up, we go right to him not playing with a few dozen nonwhites.
                        "Allen Sutton Sothoron pitched his initials off today."--1920s article

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Joltin' Joe View Post
                          That's exactly what I thought. So you equate a higher scoring environment to better hitters. Which explains why you think the best hitters ever played in 1930. :headbeat:



                          No worries, you have provided all the proof we need.

                          What other way would you show the hitters were better in one era as opposed to another?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Jackaroo Dave View Post
                            Can you provide some evidence to support this thesis--because it seems to fly in the face of intuition. I feel that if I have more available choices with the same quality of alternatives, I'll be able to make better ones.

                            For example, you have a jar filled with quarters, nickels, and dimes. You have to choose a certain number of coins, more than the number of quarters. Then someone comes along with another jar filled with quarters, nickels, and dimes. Now you can make your choices from either jar. Won't you be richer for the second jar?
                            You would be...if you could choose whatever coin you want, and knew what you were getting ahead of time. In reality, however, you are choosing randomly from one jar, and then you have another jar, and are then choosing randomly from that jar.

                            Many times you think you are getting a quarter, and it ends up a penny.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Tyrus4189Cobb View Post
                              Not if both have the same amount of of quarters, nickels, and dimes and others are choosing from the same pile. Sure, there are more available quarters, but you also end up being stuck with more nickels and dimes. The second jar isn't a new magical pool available only to you.

                              I'm not saying I agree with willshad in that league quality remains the same. I just don't buy into it nearly as much as some.
                              "You" refers to MLB, under the reasonable assumption that the quarters will be chosen first.

                              Say one jar has 150 quarters and another has 75 quarters. There are 720 slots to fill, one coin each. There are 30 people taking out coins, each with 24 slots to fill. Whether or not they are turn-taking in an orderly manner, there aren't going to be any quarters left in the jar at the end if the choosers are sane and want to get money. If there is one jar, there will be 150 quarters in the slots. If there are two jars, 225 quarters. In which case are the choosers better off?
                              Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Joltin' Joe View Post
                                Gehrig? He will put up numbers that would probably make a slow pitch softball player blush.
                                Check out his career line in a commensurate arena. A minor league park that served as an MLB Park for decades.

                                (They called it Sportsman's Park).

                                Check out Williams', Joe D's, Ruth's, and other greats career line at Sportsman's. Or the Baker Bowl! These were minor league figures being put up!!!

                                Comment

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