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is Miguel Cabrera on his way to becoming an all time hitter??

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Matthew C. View Post
    200+ seasons since 1961:

    ...

    So one of two things are happening:

    1. There are environmental factors that are making it much harder to get 200+ OPS+ nowadays or
    2. They just don't make 'em like they used to.
    Limiting the options there, aren't you? I think you can also add:

    3.Aside from the most elite players before 1961, the talent level was, relative to the post-'61 era, sub-par.
    4.Pitchers of the pre-'61 era were overused and/or under-trained.
    He's guilty of excessive window shopping.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Andy K View Post
      Limiting the options there, aren't you? I think you can also add:

      3.Aside from the most elite players before 1961, the talent level was, relative to the post-'61 era, sub-par.
      4.Pitchers of the pre-'61 era were overused and/or under-trained.
      Which would both fall under the category of "environmental factors." Wait...you didn't think I was talking about the o-zone or humidity or something, were you?
      1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

      1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

      1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


      The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
      The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

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      • #33
        Originally posted by White Knight View Post
        I believe Thome also had a near-miss.
        that was thome (197). thomas second best season was 181
        I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Matthew C. View Post
          Which would both fall under the category of "environmental factors." Wait...you didn't think I was talking about the o-zone or humidity or something, were you?
          No, but I did think by "environment" you were talking about the dimensions of the parks, travel conditions, scheduling, unis, etc.. IMO, what I specified is more appropriately labeled "attitudes".

          I'll admit that there's a double edge to, "don't make 'em like they used to," that I missed on the first two reads.
          He's guilty of excessive window shopping.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Andy K View Post
            No, but I did think by "environment" you were talking about the dimensions of the parks, travel conditions, scheduling, unis, etc.. IMO, what I specified is more appropriately labeled "attitudes".

            I'll admit that there's a double edge to, "don't make 'em like they used to," that I missed on the first two reads.
            I was using "environmental factors" as anything in the environment of the era that could influence a player's ability to separate themselves from peers.
            1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

            1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

            1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


            The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
            The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Matthew C. View Post
              I was using "environmental factors" as anything in the environment of the era that could influence a player's ability to separate themselves from peers.
              Yeah, I get that...NOW. I don't think we're as far off from each other as I originally thought.
              He's guilty of excessive window shopping.

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              • #37
                So a Triple Crown season is not great? Frank Robinson had a 198 OPS+ in 1966. Schmidt had 199 in 1981. I think we should use another criterira besides OPS+.
                "I am not too serious about anything. I believe you have to enjoy yourself to get the most out of your ability."-
                George Brett

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                • #38
                  To answer the OP, yes. I mentioned in the 3000 hit thread that Miguel is an interesting player since he's on a really nice pace and still under 30. The skills are there to be a great hitter for the next 10 years - especially with the DH available. As long as he holds up, I think he'll end up top-10 in hits when all is said and done.
                  "Chuckie doesn't take on 2-0. Chuckie's hackin'." - Chuck Carr two days prior to being released by the Milwaukee Brewers

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                  • #39
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                    Last edited by willshad; 09-04-2012, 11:04 AM.

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                    • #40
                      A 200 OPS+ i certainly possible nowadays. If a rookie like Mike Trout can have a 171, then 200 seems within reach for the right hitter. The thing is, you almost HAVE TO walk a lot (100+ times) in order to do it, and the best hitters right now do not walk a lot. The last of the great hitters who walked a lot (Thomas, Bonds) achieved it, and Thome almost did.

                      Cabrera is a great hitter, but not quite 'all time 'great for his position(s). its kind of silly to say things like 'Oh, all he has to do is remain an elite hitter for the next 10 years, and he will be among the all time greats!' Remaining an elite hitter for nearly 20 years is quite a feat.
                      Last edited by willshad; 09-04-2012, 11:06 AM.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by yankillaz View Post
                        So a Triple Crown season is not great? Frank Robinson had a 198 OPS+ in 1966. Schmidt had 199 in 1981. I think we should use another criterira besides OPS+.
                        Near-misses are fine.
                        Lou Gehrig is the Truest Yankee of them all!

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                        • #42
                          Double post.
                          Lou Gehrig is the Truest Yankee of them all!

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by willshad View Post
                            A 200 OPS+ i certainly possible nowadays..
                            Did somebody say that it was not possible? We just said that it is much more rare now.
                            1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                            1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                            1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                            The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                            The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              A relative stat should not be accounted for its era. But one might ask, if 200 OPS+ is an All-Time Hitter...then an 200 +ERA is an All-Time Pitcher???

                              That makes All-Time pitchers of (Not counting deadball era, although i should): Dwight Gooden '85, Kevin Brown '96, Zack Greinke '09 and Billy Pierce '55.

                              Not All-Time pitchers: Randy Johnson, Sandy Koufax, Tom Seaver, Steve Carlton, Warren Spahn, and others.

                              Seems kind of weird to leave these guys out.
                              "I am not too serious about anything. I believe you have to enjoy yourself to get the most out of your ability."-
                              George Brett

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by yankillaz View Post
                                A relative stat should not be accounted for its era. But one might ask, if 200 OPS+ is an All-Time Hitter...then an 200 +ERA is an All-Time Pitcher???

                                That makes All-Time pitchers of (Not counting deadball era, although i should): Dwight Gooden '85, Kevin Brown '96, Zack Greinke '09 and Billy Pierce '55.

                                Not All-Time pitchers: Randy Johnson, Sandy Koufax, Tom Seaver, Steve Carlton, Warren Spahn, and others.

                                Seems kind of weird to leave these guys out.
                                Having an OPS+ over 200 once or an ERA+ over 200 once doesn't automatically mean "all-time hitter" or "all-time pitcher". For instance, Kevin Brown is obviously not at Randy Johnson or Tom Seaver's level, or someone like Sammy Sosa isn't on Hank Aaron's level despite having one 200+ OPS+ season compared to Aaron who had none.

                                I will say that it somewhat seems easier in this era for pitchers to post an ERA+ of 200 or more "clean" than it does for a clean hitter to post an OPS+ over 200. Pedro and Maddux, two hopefully "clean" pitchers did it multiple times, though it was barely over 200 innings. The last time a supposedly "clean" hitter had an OPS+ over 200 in a full season was Bonds in 1993, and that's assuming he was clean then. 200+ OPS+ seasons seem more scarce these days than 200+ ERA+ seasons.
                                Last edited by fenrir; 09-04-2012, 11:59 PM.

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