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is Miguel Cabrera on his way to becoming an all time hitter??

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  • willshad
    replied
    Originally posted by pheasant View Post
    Actually, I mentioned 180 OPS+ by 1920s' standards. I used a 5 OPS+ drop for every 20 years(excluding the 1940s, which I put on par with the 1930s or even the 1920s)

    Thus, 180 OPS+ in the 1920s is like:

    170 in the 1950s
    165 in the 1970s
    160 in the 1990s
    155 in the 2010s

    Now granted, the drop in OPS+ isn't necessarily a linear one. It may be more of a logarithmic one. But so far, I'll go with this linear drop. I.e, recently, we can now add players like Frank Thomas, Albert Pujols, Manny Ramirez, etc.

    Of course, there are exceptions to this. Guys like Dimaggio and Piazza make my list. I'd even argue that adjusted for era, Piazza cracks the top 3 righties ever, behind Hornsby and Pujols.
    So that means, that if we put 2001-2004 Bonds into the 1920s, he comes up with about a 350 OPS+ :-o

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  • Yankillaz
    replied
    Originally posted by pheasant View Post
    Actually, I mentioned 180 OPS+ by 1920s' standards. I used a 5 OPS+ drop for every 20 years(excluding the 1940s, which I put on par with the 1930s or even the 1920s)

    Thus, 180 OPS+ in the 1920s is like:

    170 in the 1950s
    165 in the 1970s
    160 in the 1990s
    155 in the 2010s

    Now granted, the drop in OPS+ isn't necessarily a linear one. It may be more of a logarithmic one. But so far, I'll go with this linear drop. I.e, recently, we can now add players like Frank Thomas, Albert Pujols, Manny Ramirez, etc.

    Of course, there are exceptions to this. Guys like Dimaggio and Piazza make my list. I'd even argue that adjusted for era, Piazza cracks the top 3 righties ever, behind Hornsby and Pujols.
    This drop is because? LQ? Larger leagues?

    Leave a comment:


  • pheasant
    replied
    Originally posted by yankillaz View Post
    Can someone please list a 10 year run of 180+ for any player??

    I assume Ruth, Williams, Bonds, Gehrig, Hornsby and Mantle must be the only players to make the cut then. Probably add Brouthers. Cobb did it too. Big Mac barely. That's it. At least by your specs.
    Actually, I mentioned 180 OPS+ by 1920s' standards. I used a 5 OPS+ drop for every 20 years(excluding the 1940s, which I put on par with the 1930s or even the 1920s)

    Thus, 180 OPS+ in the 1920s is like:

    170 in the 1950s
    165 in the 1970s
    160 in the 1990s
    155 in the 2010s

    Now granted, the drop in OPS+ isn't necessarily a linear one. It may be more of a logarithmic one. But so far, I'll go with this linear drop. I.e, recently, we can now add players like Frank Thomas, Albert Pujols, Manny Ramirez, etc.

    Of course, there are exceptions to this. Guys like Dimaggio and Piazza make my list. I'd even argue that adjusted for era, Piazza cracks the top 3 righties ever, behind Hornsby and Pujols.
    Last edited by pheasant; 09-07-2012, 11:01 AM.

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  • Dude Paskert
    replied
    Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
    Remeber OPS+ is relative to league. To cite your examples 1972 was a low scoring year for the AL while 1999 was, well you know. Think about it as how you would rate a time for a 100 yard dash or mile for a kid. The answer would be different for an 11 year old and a 15 year old even if the times are identical.
    Take a look at the batting league leaders for the AL in '72 and then take another look at Allen's season...I think he was basically the only hitter who did much that year. All kinds of AL pitchers had low ERAs with 300+ innings that season, unless memory fails me.
    Last edited by Dude Paskert; 09-08-2012, 05:46 PM.

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  • Jackaroo Dave
    replied
    Originally posted by White Knight View Post
    How about averaging 180 over a 10 year span? That is a bit more common.
    Oh, sorry, no doubt that's what was wanted. That's a little harder For me to frame using BB Ref, but I will give it a shot if no one else does.

    (Back again)

    I come up with the following hitters who have averaged 180 or more over ten years or longer:

    Ruth, Bonds, Williams, Cobb, Hornsby, Gehrig, Brouthers, Mantle, and McGwire.
    Last edited by Jackaroo Dave; 09-07-2012, 02:16 AM.

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  • White Knight
    replied
    Originally posted by Jackaroo Dave View Post
    In the 20s six players who qualified for the batting title had at least one 180 OPS+ season: Speaker, Sisler, Heilmann, Gehrig, Hornsby, and Ruth. No one had a run of ten (including but not limited to the 20s) because of Ruth's 1925 season, which divided his 1918-1932 performance in two strings.

    There was one run of ten ever, Cobb from 1909 to 1918.
    How about averaging 180 over a 10 year span? That is a bit more common.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jackaroo Dave
    replied
    Originally posted by yankillaz View Post
    Can someone please list a 10 year run of 180+ for any player??

    I assume Ruth, Williams, Bonds, Gehrig, Hornsby and Mantle must be the only players to make the cut then. Probably add Brouthers. Cobb did it too. Big Mac barely. That's it. At least by your specs.
    In the 20s six players who qualified for the batting title had at least one 180 OPS+ season: Speaker, Sisler, Heilmann, Gehrig, Hornsby, and Ruth. No one had a run of ten (including but not limited to the 20s) because of Ruth's 1925 season, which divided his 1918-1932 performance in two strings.

    There was one run of ten ever, Cobb from 1909 to 1918.
    Last edited by Jackaroo Dave; 09-06-2012, 08:30 PM.

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  • Yankillaz
    replied
    Originally posted by pheasant View Post
    I look For a 10 year run of 180+ Ops+ in the 1920s. In order to adjust for era, I subtract 5 ops+ for 20 years, except the war raided 1940s. Thus, 180 in 1950 is like 170 in 1990 and so on. Thus, 180 in 1920s is like 160 now.
    Can someone please list a 10 year run of 180+ for any player??

    I assume Ruth, Williams, Bonds, Gehrig, Hornsby and Mantle must be the only players to make the cut then. Probably add Brouthers. Cobb did it too. Big Mac barely. That's it. At least by your specs.

    Leave a comment:


  • pheasant
    replied
    I look For a 10 year run of 180+ Ops+ in the 1920s. In order to adjust for era, I subtract 5 ops+ for 20 years, except the war raided 1940s. Thus, 180 in 1950 is like 170 in 1990 and so on. Thus, 180 in 1920s is like 160 now.
    Last edited by pheasant; 09-05-2012, 12:00 PM.

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  • PVNICK
    replied
    Remeber OPS+ is relative to league. To cite your examples 1972 was a low scoring year for the AL while 1999 was, well you know. Think about it as how you would rate a time for a 100 yard dash or mile for a kid. The answer would be different for an 11 year old and a 15 year old even if the times are identical.

    Leave a comment:


  • White Knight
    replied
    Sometimes I just don't understand OPS+. Take Manny's 1999. .333 BA, .442 OBP, 44 home runs, 165 RBI (I know, irreverent to OPS+). That looks like it should easily be 200, but it's only 174. To me, that's far better than A-Rod's 2007 or some of Pujols' best years, yet they posted higher OPS+'s. And how about Dick Allen's 1972? Nothing screams 199 OPS+ about that season at all.
    Last edited by White Knight; 09-05-2012, 09:46 AM.

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  • fenrir
    replied
    Originally posted by yankillaz View Post
    A relative stat should not be accounted for its era. But one might ask, if 200 OPS+ is an All-Time Hitter...then an 200 +ERA is an All-Time Pitcher???

    That makes All-Time pitchers of (Not counting deadball era, although i should): Dwight Gooden '85, Kevin Brown '96, Zack Greinke '09 and Billy Pierce '55.

    Not All-Time pitchers: Randy Johnson, Sandy Koufax, Tom Seaver, Steve Carlton, Warren Spahn, and others.

    Seems kind of weird to leave these guys out.
    Having an OPS+ over 200 once or an ERA+ over 200 once doesn't automatically mean "all-time hitter" or "all-time pitcher". For instance, Kevin Brown is obviously not at Randy Johnson or Tom Seaver's level, or someone like Sammy Sosa isn't on Hank Aaron's level despite having one 200+ OPS+ season compared to Aaron who had none.

    I will say that it somewhat seems easier in this era for pitchers to post an ERA+ of 200 or more "clean" than it does for a clean hitter to post an OPS+ over 200. Pedro and Maddux, two hopefully "clean" pitchers did it multiple times, though it was barely over 200 innings. The last time a supposedly "clean" hitter had an OPS+ over 200 in a full season was Bonds in 1993, and that's assuming he was clean then. 200+ OPS+ seasons seem more scarce these days than 200+ ERA+ seasons.
    Last edited by fenrir; 09-04-2012, 11:59 PM.

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  • Yankillaz
    replied
    A relative stat should not be accounted for its era. But one might ask, if 200 OPS+ is an All-Time Hitter...then an 200 +ERA is an All-Time Pitcher???

    That makes All-Time pitchers of (Not counting deadball era, although i should): Dwight Gooden '85, Kevin Brown '96, Zack Greinke '09 and Billy Pierce '55.

    Not All-Time pitchers: Randy Johnson, Sandy Koufax, Tom Seaver, Steve Carlton, Warren Spahn, and others.

    Seems kind of weird to leave these guys out.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bothrops Atrox
    replied
    Originally posted by willshad View Post
    A 200 OPS+ i certainly possible nowadays..
    Did somebody say that it was not possible? We just said that it is much more rare now.

    Leave a comment:


  • White Knight
    replied
    Double post.

    Leave a comment:

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