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There's an interesting and expanding/diverging/tangential/lively thread here that started out with a poll: Mickey Mantle or Joe DiMaggio. It started some time ago; got a second life, and now seems well on its way to 1,000 posts.
Not to hijack the thread [I'll be going back to address some of the tangential side discussions sooner or later]. There was a recurring theme on yhe thread having to do with Bill James' rankings and Jim Wynn. I decided to toss out a list, ranking CF, 1901-Present in a snapshot form that distills careers to the following common parameters:
1. Batting: Runs Created per Plate Appearance + Defense Runs in CF +/- MLB CF averages, by season, over career in CF.
2. Summing the two components into a Total Runs element to be divided by Plate Appearances to = Net Runs/PA.
3. Reviewing the 1901-Present seasons to get a Run Creation Climate per PA; so we are not comparing 1908 [.094 or so] against 1936 [.13+] even up. Some players, like Earl Averill and Sam West have a tough offensive climate row to hoe, at .1300 +. Others, like Jim Wynn from the 1960s, or Ginger Beaumont from the first decade of the 1900s are measured against their peers, at .1081 and .1054 respectively.
4. Taking 600 PA to represent 1 Season and crediting "Seasons" on that basis.
5. Defense Runs are ONLY CF Defense Runs. All numbers are career numbers. If a player gathered 62 Defense Runs better than average in CF, then that's his FIXED DR number. His PA may be 8800 at all positions [14.7 "seasons"]; but all that accrues over that period is batting RC. His DR stay at 62. Any bias for a"favored" star defender in CF, whose career may be abbreviated by, war, injury, death, or weak hitting, is eliminated, The accruals just STOP.
Here are the rankings for the 60 or so CF included [Players whose names are followed by asterisks are those who scored heavily with Defense Runs above average over [and relative to] the lengths of their careers:
1. Mays*
2. Cobb
3. Speaker*
4. Mantle
5. DiMaggio, J.
6. Snider
7. Edmonds*
8. Smith, R.
9. Beltran*
10.Williams, B.
11. Jones, A.*
12. Lynn
13. Dawson*
14. Averill
15. Ashburn*
16. Lofton*
17. Puckett
18. Doby
19. Pinson
20. Lemon, C.*
21. Carey*
22. Berger
23. DiMaggio, D.*
24. Dykstra*
25. Roush
26. West, S.*
27. Wilson, H.
28. Wynn
29. Damon
30. Davis, W.*
31. Murcer
32. Flood*
33. Cameron, M.*
34. Murphy, Dw.*
35. Pafko
36. Butler
37. Beaumont*
38. Seymour
39. Chapman, S.*
40. Mostil*
41. Jones, F.*
42. Henderson, Da.*
43. Judnich*
44. Hidalgo
45. Agee*
46. Wilson, W.
47. Erstad*
48. White, Dev.*
49. Blair*
50. Finley
51. Everett
52. Landis*
53. Hunter, T.
54. Cardenal
55. Kreevich*
56. Douthit*
57. Hall, J.
58. McGee
59. DiMaggio, V.*
60. Piersall*
61. Flagstead
62. Pettis*
63. Statz*
The list of names I worked through ultimately came to well over 100 CF [1901-2012] who might be considered. That would be a number similar to this list who have been omitted. Of course, there's always that odd player who falls between the cracks. If you find him, let me know.
Not to hijack the thread [I'll be going back to address some of the tangential side discussions sooner or later]. There was a recurring theme on yhe thread having to do with Bill James' rankings and Jim Wynn. I decided to toss out a list, ranking CF, 1901-Present in a snapshot form that distills careers to the following common parameters:
1. Batting: Runs Created per Plate Appearance + Defense Runs in CF +/- MLB CF averages, by season, over career in CF.
2. Summing the two components into a Total Runs element to be divided by Plate Appearances to = Net Runs/PA.
3. Reviewing the 1901-Present seasons to get a Run Creation Climate per PA; so we are not comparing 1908 [.094 or so] against 1936 [.13+] even up. Some players, like Earl Averill and Sam West have a tough offensive climate row to hoe, at .1300 +. Others, like Jim Wynn from the 1960s, or Ginger Beaumont from the first decade of the 1900s are measured against their peers, at .1081 and .1054 respectively.
4. Taking 600 PA to represent 1 Season and crediting "Seasons" on that basis.
5. Defense Runs are ONLY CF Defense Runs. All numbers are career numbers. If a player gathered 62 Defense Runs better than average in CF, then that's his FIXED DR number. His PA may be 8800 at all positions [14.7 "seasons"]; but all that accrues over that period is batting RC. His DR stay at 62. Any bias for a"favored" star defender in CF, whose career may be abbreviated by, war, injury, death, or weak hitting, is eliminated, The accruals just STOP.
Here are the rankings for the 60 or so CF included [Players whose names are followed by asterisks are those who scored heavily with Defense Runs above average over [and relative to] the lengths of their careers:
1. Mays*
2. Cobb
3. Speaker*
4. Mantle
5. DiMaggio, J.
6. Snider
7. Edmonds*
8. Smith, R.
9. Beltran*
10.Williams, B.
11. Jones, A.*
12. Lynn
13. Dawson*
14. Averill
15. Ashburn*
16. Lofton*
17. Puckett
18. Doby
19. Pinson
20. Lemon, C.*
21. Carey*
22. Berger
23. DiMaggio, D.*
24. Dykstra*
25. Roush
26. West, S.*
27. Wilson, H.
28. Wynn
29. Damon
30. Davis, W.*
31. Murcer
32. Flood*
33. Cameron, M.*
34. Murphy, Dw.*
35. Pafko
36. Butler
37. Beaumont*
38. Seymour
39. Chapman, S.*
40. Mostil*
41. Jones, F.*
42. Henderson, Da.*
43. Judnich*
44. Hidalgo
45. Agee*
46. Wilson, W.
47. Erstad*
48. White, Dev.*
49. Blair*
50. Finley
51. Everett
52. Landis*
53. Hunter, T.
54. Cardenal
55. Kreevich*
56. Douthit*
57. Hall, J.
58. McGee
59. DiMaggio, V.*
60. Piersall*
61. Flagstead
62. Pettis*
63. Statz*
The list of names I worked through ultimately came to well over 100 CF [1901-2012] who might be considered. That would be a number similar to this list who have been omitted. Of course, there's always that odd player who falls between the cracks. If you find him, let me know.
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