Andruw Jones vs. Willie Mays (fielding)

[Tyrus4189Cobb]

Sorry to add to the "versus" posts that are cropping up, but I've had this for a while.

Andruw Jones is the all-time leader in Total Zone Runs for centerfielders (since 1954) with 220. Behind him, Willie Mays has 177. This would exclude 1951 and 1952.

How about it? Is Jones a greater fielder than Mays? A great as Mays was, does he take the spot of greatest fielding center fielder?

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I remember one time Joe Morgan was comparing Jones' defense to Mays. Morgan said something to the effect that according to Bobby Cox Jones doesn't get after the ball on every play like Willie did. Mind you Morgan is a HUGE Mays fan and played against him, many, many times. If Morgan truly believed that Mays was better defensively he would have said so. To me at least it came across that Morgan thought Jones was the equal or better than Mays, didn't want to admit it on TV, but wasn't going to lie about it either.

[Yankillaz]

WAR might be misleading at times. As so can be some of the latest defensive stats. But the fact that Andruw Jones is so much better than the rest of outfielders, as Brooks Robinson and Ozzie Smith at their respective positions, that has to mean something.

Can't really argue on this one, but by stats, Jones is better.

[dominik]

WAR might be misleading at times. As so can be some of the latest defensive stats. But the fact that Andruw Jones is so much better than the rest of outfielders, as Brooks Robinson and Ozzie Smith at their respective positions, that has to mean something.

Can't really argue on this one, but by stats, Jones is better.

well I guess there were not many play by play data available from mays time

[pheasant]

I hate to admit it, but Kenny Lofton and Andruw Jones were the best defensive centerfielders that I ever saw. I'd say Jones has the edge over Lofton since he had a better arm. I didn't get to see Mays play. But I cannot imagine somebody from 30 years prior playing defense like these two guys, particularly Andruw Jones.

[BigRon]

Sorry to add to the "versus" posts that are cropping up, but I've had this for a while.

Andruw Jones is the all-time leader in Total Zone Runs for centerfielders (since 1954) with 220. Behind him, Willie Mays has 177. This would exclude 1951 and 1952.

How about it? Is Jones a greater fielder than Mays? A great as Mays was, does he take the spot of greatest fielding center fielder?

Fielding is SO hard to quantify well, either by traditional stats or newer ones. I, for one, don't put enormous stock in the new defensive metrics or metrics created by some BBFers. That said, such metrics can give reasonable directional guidance, but I personally wouldn't rely too much on them for direct comparative purposes.

I saw Mays play quite a few times. He could, and did, do it all defensively. Great instincts, great range, great routes, outstanding arm. Was he better than Jones? I don't know. I saw a fair amount of Jones, but not regularly. He clearly was outstanding, too. In his young days he ate up ground effortlessly. I don't remember a lot about his arm, just that it seemed to be pretty good. My guess is that it was not in the same category with Mays, but I really don't remember seing him make a lot of tough throws.

[Tyrus4189Cobb]

Fielding is SO hard to quantify well, either by traditional stats or newer ones. I, for one, don't put enormous stock in the new defensive metrics or metrics created by some BBFers. That said, such metrics can give reasonable directional guidance, but I personally wouldn't rely too much on them for direct comparative purposes

Believe me, I ignore most defensive metrics. This was an observation. I wish there was a legitimate defensive metric only because I'd like to know the fielding of all players, especially those from yesteryear lacking a lot of information. I go by quotes/anecdotes when it comes to defense. These are too difficult to dig up for many players.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Did not see them all of course and not a Braves or Jones fan. But, he is one of the best I can recall seeing.

[abolishthedh]

Have to weigh in on this matter, because I read Hirsch's book on Mays a year or so back. The Mays bio is one of the best researched sports bios I've ever read.

Some of the most impressive stories unearthed were the dozen or more stories behind Mays' most well-known defensive plays. One particular play involved a throw from the outfield in an early 1950s game. This play was referred to several times over later pages as The Throw (as it might stack up with The Catch which we already know about). I cannot emphasize it enough: teammates and opposing players, coaches, media types, fans and whoever else would describe these plays in a paragraph or so, by setting up the situation and summing up the effect of the play Mays had executed. The detail was amazing.

Obviously, it might sound like I am touting Hirsch's book, but I am simply stating that it takes one heck of a player for all these witnesses to remember that much about the plays. Research by anecdote is all we could have from the 1950s and most of the 1960s regular season games. Broadcast video has deteriorated if the video ever existed.

I really doubt Andruw Jones could ever have a list of highlight plays which his teammates, opponents, media and fans could describe in detail decades later. This statement is from an Andruw fan, BTW. :twocents:

[NJYankeeFan]

I remember one time Joe Morgan was comparing Jones' defense to Mays. Morgan said something to the effect that according to Bobby Cox Jones doesn't get after the ball on every play like Willie did. Mind you Morgan is a HUGE Mays fan and played against him, many, many times. If Morgan truly believed that Mays was better defensively he would have said so. To me at least it came across that Morgan thought Jones was the equal or better than Mays, didn't want to admit it on TV, but wasn't going to lie about it either.

If Morgan said Mays was better then Jones definitely was.

Very simple.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2

[Joltin' Joe]

Never saw Mays play, but side to side coverage, I cannot imagine anyone being as good as the young skinny Mr. Jones.

[9RoyHobbsRF]

Never saw Mays play, but side to side coverage, I cannot imagine anyone being as good as the young skinny Mr. Jones.

I would say the opposite

No one can compare with Mays ability to do ALL of this: run down balls, make extremely difficult catches, even in traffic - and he had a cannon of an arm, extremely accurate and powerful

He was smart in positioning and knowing the hitters as well

He has made catches that to this day a-MAYS me

[JR Hart]

It's so hard to judge this and it's really subjective. I'm going to say Richie Ashburn was the best, only because he was born in the same hospital as my wife, in Tilden NE.

[Bothrops Atrox]

Given the uncertainty of defensive metrics, a 40 run difference is well within a M.O.E. I would also like to see Michael Humphrey's DRA and Bill James DWS. These are the only three published systems that attempt to gauge defense from "the beginning". Unfortunately, as iffy as these metrics are, biased eye-witnesses can be just as, if not more, unreliable.

Quantifying defense is the Holy Grail of the sabermetric community - it may never be found.

[dominik]

Given the uncertainty of defensive metrics, a 40 run difference is well within a M.O.E. I would also like to see Michael Humphrey's DRA and Bill James DWS. These are the only three published systems that attempt to gauge defense from "the beginning". Unfortunately, as iffy as these metrics are, biased eye-witnesses can be just as, if not more, unreliable.

Quantifying defense is the Holy Grail of the sabermetric community - it may never be found.

how accurate were dWAR data and other metrics from that time when they didn't analyze play by play data?