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  • #16
    Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
    From what I've heard it's extremely likely Morris will be elected in the next year or two.
    If he didn't make it yet, it's almost certain he won't except from the veterans committee. Who is saying this anyway?

    Next year: Bonds, Clemens, Schilling, Lofton, Biggio, Piazza, Sosa

    Year after: Maddux, Mussina, Glavine, Thomas

    If he didn't make it in during the weak sauce years, he's not going to now.
    "It's better to look good, than be good."

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by drstrangelove View Post
      If he didn't make it yet, it's almost certain he won't except from the veterans committee. Who is saying this anyway?

      Next year: Bonds, Clemens, Schilling, Lofton, Biggio, Piazza, Sosa

      Year after: Maddux, Mussina, Glavine, Thomas

      If he didn't make it in during the weak sauce years, he's not going to now.
      Jay Jaffe for one: http://mlb.sbnation.com/2012/1/10/26...f-fame-chances
      My top 10 players:

      1. Babe Ruth
      2. Barry Bonds
      3. Ty Cobb
      4. Ted Williams
      5. Willie Mays
      6. Alex Rodriguez
      7. Hank Aaron
      8. Honus Wagner
      9. Lou Gehrig
      10. Mickey Mantle

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by ol' aches and pains View Post
        Blyleven "compiled" 60 complete-game shutouts, seven more than Perry in the same number of years. He deserves to be in the Hall, and should have been a lot sooner.
        Blyleven reached his first 53 complete-game shutouts, Perry's career total, in 1423.2 fewer IPs, which equals about 5.5-6 full seasons quicker.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by drstrangelove View Post
          If he didn't make it yet, it's almost certain he won't except from the veterans committee.
          That "exception" of the VC is still a large window of opportunity.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
            Bert Blyleven made 3 all star teams in 22 years

            Mark Langston made 4 AS games in 16 years

            fernando Valenzuela made 6 ASG in 17 years

            Gaylord won 18 or more games 8 times including 5 20 win seasons, Blyleven won 18 or more games twice with 1 20 game season

            blyleven was the epitome of a compiler
            Byleven had more pitching WAR per season than the following and his ERA+ (118) was right in the middle of the group.

            Gaylord Perry (117)
            Warren Spahn (119)
            Bob Gibson (127)
            Juan Marichal (123)
            Steve Carlton (115)
            Nolan Ryan (112)

            All of which are in the HoF. Had Blyleven not had horrible support, he would have comfortably made it himself on the first ballot.

            If the point is that only Johnson, Grove, Young, Alexander, Mathewson and Seaver should be in the HoF, then that is a different issue.


            Pedro Martinez was in the same number of ASG as Nolan. Equal talent or poor metric?
            "It's better to look good, than be good."

            Comment


            • #21
              Blyleven is even worse than mentioned. He only made two All-Star games.
              "Any pitcher who throws at a batter and deliberately tries to hit him is a communist."

              - Alvin Dark

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by ol' aches and pains View Post
                Blyleven "compiled" 60 complete-game shutouts, seven more than Perry in the same number of years.
                He complied a top 5 career strikeout total (top 3 at his retirement), as well.

                The compiler notion is foolish enough on it's face. To have it applied to a guy like Bert is redoubling the hilarity.
                3 6 10 21 29 31 35 41 42 44 47

                Comment


                • #23
                  Just looking at Blyleven's 1st 15 seasons alone, outside of wins, his numbers match what guys like Jim Palmer, Warren Spahn, Don Drysdale, Robin Roberts, Gaylord Perry were doing their 1st 15 seasons, sometimes their whole career.

                  1970-1984

                  195-167 = .539
                  126 ERA+
                  71.8 pWAR

                  3.00 ERA
                  176 CGs
                  46 Shutouts
                  3422.1 IPs
                  939 BBs
                  2669 Ks
                  1.174 WHIP
                  Last edited by dgarza; 09-21-2012, 07:37 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Los Bravos View Post
                    He complied a top 5 career strikeout total (top 3 at his retirement), as well.

                    The compiler notion is foolish enough on it's face. To have it applied to a guy like Bert is redoubling the hilarity.
                    how is it foolish

                    he played in 2 ASG in 22 years

                    he won more than 18 games twice in 22 years

                    this is the definition of a compiler
                    1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                    2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                    3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
                      how is it foolish

                      he played in 2 ASG in 22 years

                      he won more than 18 games twice in 22 years

                      this is the definition of a compiler
                      How is having 2 ASGs compiling? It is the opposite.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by dgarza View Post
                        How is having 2 ASGs compiling? It is the opposite.

                        Blyleven was not good enough year after year to be considered one of the ALs top pitchers
                        his low seasonal win totals and very low amount of ASG attest to that

                        his longevity and ability to record mid level wins year after year amssed a true compilers record

                        it really is a simple concept, a compiler is not a negative term, it is a definitive term.

                        Sandy Koufax had a tremendous peak but did not pitch a lot of games over his career due to ealry usage limits and retiring early

                        Blyleven had all of two seasons with more than 18 wins, in a generation where 20 game winners were very common, what he did do (and is a prime example of) is someone who had a long steady but rather unspectacular career, that does not diminish his career accomplishments but it also does not elevate him to one of the games best pitchers in the years he pitched


                        lets' look at blylevens wins by year compared to the league
                        1970 7 20 game winners
                        1971 10 20 game winners
                        1972 6 20 game winners
                        1973 12 20 game winners (Blyleven's only 20 win season)
                        1974 9 20 game winners
                        1975 5 20 game winners
                        1976 3 20 game winners
                        1977 3 20 game winners
                        from 1970-1977 the AL had 55 20 win seasons Blyleven had 1

                        and we know from 1978 on he never had another 20 win season

                        and again this was ORIGINALLY in response to a post where Gaylord Perry aong others was suggested as a compiler, yes Gaylord with 8 seasons of 18 or more wins and 2 Cy Youngs
                        Last edited by 9RoyHobbsRF; 09-21-2012, 11:15 AM.
                        1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                        2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                        3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
                          Blyleven was not good enough year after year to be considered one of the ALs top pitchers
                          his low seasonal win totals and very low amount of ASG attest to that

                          his longevity and ability to record mid level wins year after year amssed a true compilers record

                          it really is a simple concept, a compiler is not a negative term, it is a definitive term.

                          Sandy Koufax had a tremendous peak but did not pitch a lot of games over his career due to ealry usage limits and retiring early

                          Blyleven had all of two seasons with more than 18 wins, in a generation where 20 game winners were very common, what he did do (and is a prime example of) is someone who had a long steady but rather unspectacular career, that does not diminish his career accomplishments but it also does not elevate him to one of the games best pitchers in the years he pitched


                          lets' look at blylevens wins by year compared to the league
                          1970 7 20 game winners
                          1971 10 20 game winners
                          1972 6 20 game winners
                          1973 12 20 game winners (Blyleven's only 20 win season)
                          1974 9 20 game winners
                          1975 5 20 game winners
                          1976 3 20 game winners
                          1977 3 20 game winners
                          from 1970-1977 the AL had 55 20 win seasons Blyleven had 1

                          and we know from 1978 on he never had another 20 win season

                          and again this was ORIGINALLY in response to a post where Gaylord Perry aong others was suggested as a compiler, yes Gaylord with 8 seasons of 18 or more wins and 2 Cy Youngs
                          Wins is merely one stat that is used to evaluate pitchers - and one of the least reliable ones. Why are you cherry-picking wins totals, when there are so many other stats to look at - all of which are determined moreso by the quality of the pitcher than by the quality of his teammates?
                          My top 10 players:

                          1. Babe Ruth
                          2. Barry Bonds
                          3. Ty Cobb
                          4. Ted Williams
                          5. Willie Mays
                          6. Alex Rodriguez
                          7. Hank Aaron
                          8. Honus Wagner
                          9. Lou Gehrig
                          10. Mickey Mantle

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            here is Blyleven's ERA ranks for traditionalists.

                            1971 AL 2.81 (5th)
                            1973 AL 2.52 (2nd)
                            1974 AL 2.66 (4th)
                            1975 AL 3.00 (6th)
                            1976 AL 2.87 (9th)
                            1977 AL 2.72 (2nd)
                            1981 AL 2.88 (8th)
                            1984 AL 2.87 (3rd)
                            1985 AL 3.16 (5th)
                            1989 AL 2.73 (4th)

                            in fairness here is Palmer's
                            1969 AL 2.34 (2nd)
                            1970 AL 2.71 (2nd)
                            1971 AL 2.68 (3rd)
                            1972 AL 2.07 (4th)
                            1973 AL 2.40 (1st)
                            1975 AL 2.09 (1st)
                            1976 AL 2.51 (5th)
                            1977 AL 2.91 (5th)
                            1978 AL 2.46 (4th)
                            1982 AL 3.13 (3rd)

                            here is Hunter's

                            1972 AL 2.04 (3rd)
                            1974 AL 2.49 (1st)
                            1975 AL 2.58 (2nd)

                            here's Gibson
                            1961 NL 3.24 (5th)
                            1962 NL 2.85 (5th)
                            1966 NL 2.44 (5th)
                            1968 NL 1.12 (1st)
                            1969 NL 2.18 (3rd)
                            1970 NL 3.12 (4th)
                            1972 NL 2.46 (5th)
                            1973 NL 2.77 (6th)

                            Blyleven may not have any #1s but he seems to fit somewhere between Gibson and Palmer

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
                              here is Blyleven's ERA ranks for traditionalists.

                              1971 AL 2.81 (5th)
                              1973 AL 2.52 (2nd)
                              1974 AL 2.66 (4th)
                              1975 AL 3.00 (6th)
                              1976 AL 2.87 (9th)
                              1977 AL 2.72 (2nd)
                              1981 AL 2.88 (8th)
                              1984 AL 2.87 (3rd)
                              1985 AL 3.16 (5th)
                              1989 AL 2.73 (4th)

                              in fairness here is Palmer's
                              1969 AL 2.34 (2nd)
                              1970 AL 2.71 (2nd)
                              1971 AL 2.68 (3rd)
                              1972 AL 2.07 (4th)
                              1973 AL 2.40 (1st)
                              1975 AL 2.09 (1st)
                              1976 AL 2.51 (5th)
                              1977 AL 2.91 (5th)
                              1978 AL 2.46 (4th)
                              1982 AL 3.13 (3rd)

                              here is Hunter's

                              1972 AL 2.04 (3rd)
                              1974 AL 2.49 (1st)
                              1975 AL 2.58 (2nd)

                              here's Gibson
                              1961 NL 3.24 (5th)
                              1962 NL 2.85 (5th)
                              1966 NL 2.44 (5th)
                              1968 NL 1.12 (1st)
                              1969 NL 2.18 (3rd)
                              1970 NL 3.12 (4th)
                              1972 NL 2.46 (5th)
                              1973 NL 2.77 (6th)

                              Blyleven may not have any #1s but he seems to fit somewhere between Gibson and Palmer
                              "But WINS<%#@^%&%$%#!!!"
                              My top 10 players:

                              1. Babe Ruth
                              2. Barry Bonds
                              3. Ty Cobb
                              4. Ted Williams
                              5. Willie Mays
                              6. Alex Rodriguez
                              7. Hank Aaron
                              8. Honus Wagner
                              9. Lou Gehrig
                              10. Mickey Mantle

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
                                Wins is merely one stat that is used to evaluate pitchers - and one of the least reliable ones. Why are you cherry-picking wins totals, when there are so many other stats to look at - all of which are determined moreso by the quality of the pitcher than by the quality of his teammates?
                                2 ASG in 22 years says a lot

                                he won 12 games for a world champion

                                it is not cherry picking when you include HIS WHOLE CAREER which I have done

                                it IS cherry picking when you single out a few years

                                BTW, didn't Blyleven lead the world in HR allowed>?

                                AND THE MAIN POINT is Gaylord Perry was brought up as a compiler, a pitcher with 5 20 win seasons and 2 cy young awards

                                what does that make Blyleven> a pitcher with 1 20 game season (when there were 12 in the same league) and no CY
                                Last edited by 9RoyHobbsRF; 09-21-2012, 01:35 PM.
                                1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                                2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                                3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

                                Comment

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