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1949-1953 New York Yankees vs 1971-1975 Oakland A's

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  • 1949-1953 New York Yankees vs 1971-1975 Oakland A's

    We all know that Casey and his magic bag arrived in 1949 and the Yankees went on to win 5 straight world series

    I will play my (oh no not again) devil's advocate and postulate that the 1971-1975 A's are somewhat comparable

    here are some thoughts

    1) The Yankees played 5 post season series and won all 5
    2) however, they had a subway series in 4 of the 5 series so there was no travel in 4 of their 5 series (yes it was the same for 4 of their opponents)
    3) In 1949 they played the Dodgers, both teams had very narrow pennant wins, the Yanks had home field advantage but won all 3 games in Brooklyn
    4) In 1950, the Yankees won the AL by 3 games in another tight race, but the NL was even tighter as the Phillies clinched the pennant in the final game of the season in extra innings. The depleted Phillies pitching staff (due to the race and losing Curt Simmons to Military service) were forced to use a reliever to start game 1. While Konstanty was the NL MVP he never started a game all year and averaged abut 2 innings per game in relief. A narrow 1-0 win for the Yanks in Game 1 was matched by another narrow win in Game 2, as Robin Roberts, the one decent Phillie starter outside of Simmons all year was forced to pitch on two days rest after a 10 inning game 154. He also narrowly lost 2-1 to Vic Raschi who pitched on 5 days rest. The Phillies really had no other decent starters and game 3 was yet another 1 run game 3-2, and the Yanks finally broke thru with a bigger win in Game 4 5-2. Would the series had been different had Simmons been available down the stretch and the Phillies won with a little margin and had fully rested starters for Games 1 and 2? Well they really lost because of lack of hitting not pitching, but still.
    5) Once again, in 1951 the Yankees had a comfortable pennant win while the Giants had to go thru a 3 game playoff to reach the series. The Yanks did not have Whitey Ford in 1951 or 1952 due to MS, but their big three had 5 days rest each before the series started while The Giants were forced to use their 4th or 5th best pitcher in game 1 and the others had less rest than their Yankee counterparts. The Giants took a 2-1 series lead before the Yanks ran the table the next 3. The subway series did have a 1 game break between game 3 and 4, I am wondering why? Otherwise they played consecutive days for games 1-2-3 and 4-5-6.
    6) In 1952 the Ddgers had a 4.5 game winning margin and the Yanks just 2.0 Again the Yanks were missing a young Whitey Ford while the Dodgers were missing their ace Don Newcombe to MS. No rest between all 7 games and the Dodgers led 2 games to 1 and 3 games to 2 before the Yanks took games 6 3-2 and Game 7 4-2. They matched the 1936-39 Yanks with 4 straght WS wins.
    7) In 1953, the Dodgers were monsters on offense but so-so pitching still missing Newcombe. But Whitey Ford returned and had a stellar 18-6 record. The teams split the first 4 games before the Yanks took game 6 11-7 and game 7 4-3 to capture their unmatched 5th straight world championship.

    Again very very impressive but in 4 years they never had to travel for a series game, and in 2 years they played teams with somewhat depleted pitching staffs due to very tight pennant races (and MS), particularly 1950. And they only traveled once, all of 90 miles in those 5 series.

    Now let's look at the 1971-1975 A's.
    1) we will look at 1971 and 1975 first. The A's won decisive division races both years, In 1971 they played .627 ball and in 1975 despite losing Catfish Hunter, their Hof F pitcher to free agancey, they again played over .600 ball (best in the AL). Most pundits expected Vida Bue to win Game 1 of the 1971 ALCS but had Baltimore with their 4 20 game winners and star studded team to take their third straight ALCS. Blue was actually leading 3-1 after 6 IP but the Orioles rallied for 4 runs to take the game and then cruise to the sweep. In 1975, the A's were to play the first two games in Fenway and they were in a quandry as their two best pitchers (since Hunter left) were LH Blue and Holtzman, but you dont want to start LH in Fenway. I feel if they chose to start a RH in 1 of the 2 games at Fenway or IF they were able to have the first two games at home they would have done much better. As it was they got desperate and started Holtzman on short rest in Game 3 and that failed and they got swept. Note Jim Rice was unable to play for the Sox in the short series to be fair. But keep in mind in both 1971 and 1975 the A's had to play games 3 time zones away.
    2) so 1972 began a stretch where the A's became the first team ever winning 6 straight post season series. They also had to travel to the eastern time zone in 1972 (Detroit and Cinci), 1973 (Baltimore and NY Mets) and 1974 - for the ALCS again in Baltimore. The one time they stayed on the west coast, 1974 vs the Dodgers was probably their best played of all 6 series (or all 8 including 71 and 75). But even that was over 500 miles away.
    3) In 1972 they played a bitter hard fought series vs the Tigers winning a close game 5. But they lost Reggie Jackson for the 1972 series. The Reds would have been favored anyway but after Jackson was ruled out, they should have won easily. But the A's surprised the Reds and took some close games and took a 3-1 series lead before hanging on to win Game 7.
    4) In 1973, they got their revenge on the O's, losing twice to Cy Young Winner Jim Palmer but taking a decisive Game 5 3-0 behind Catfish. They then defeated a game NY Mets in 7 games for the series.
    5) In 1974, the lost game 1 then held the O's to 1 run over the final 3 games to make it to their third straight series. This time in a series that was close in each game (4 of the 5 games were scored 3-2). Oh by the way they changed managers this year.

    So the somewhat thin arguments the A's have are
    1) they were the first team to win 6 straight post season series
    2) they won the 72 series without their best player
    3) they had what could have become a disruptive manager change for 1974
    INSERT: they also lost their best pitcher, a Hall of Famer to free agency after 1974
    4) unlike the Yanks who did not travel at all in 4 of their 5 series and only had a short 90 mile ride in the fifth, the A's had multiple east coast trips in 7 of their 8 series (or 5 of their 6 in their run) and even their LA trip was 4-5 times farther than the NY to Philly trip
    5) they for the most part did not have the chance to set up their rotation like the Yankees did due to having back to back post seasons series in their WS years
    6) they really did not have the benefit of an opponent with a disrupted rotation like the Yankees did in 1950 and 1951

    EDIT: for comparison purposes, the 1969-1971 Orioles (or 1969-1974) were one of baseball's all time great teams, but although they cruised to 3 straight sweeps in the ALCS, they lost 2 of the 3 world series they played in and of course did not make the playoffs in 1972 and lost the 73 ALCS (3-2) and the 74 ALCS (3-1)

    OK

    pile it on
    Last edited by 9RoyHobbsRF; 09-24-2012, 10:17 PM.
    1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
    2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
    3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

  • #2
    You make a very good case.

    Getting swept in 71 and 75 didn't help the A's. But winning 3 consecutive WS, with another round is hard and makes the 98-00 Yankees 3 in a row, with 3 rounds of playoffs, even more remarkable.

    I think that the travel is a little overrated. Losing Reggie in 72 hurt, but the A's were built on pitching. However, I will say that winning 6 series in a row (not all best of 7) is a feat and the A's are one of historiy's best teams. It's hard to compare them with the 49-53 Yanks, because of the extra round of playoffs. However the A's only had to beat out 5 others to make the playoffs, the Yankees had to beat out 7.
    This week's Giant

    #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

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    • #3
      Yankees by a mile. It's not close, really. The mid 70's Reds would have a better case.

      The point that they didn't have to travel for some of their series is irrelevant. Their opponents didn't have to travel either.
      Last edited by GiambiJuice; 09-24-2012, 10:15 PM.
      My top 10 players:

      1. Babe Ruth
      2. Barry Bonds
      3. Ty Cobb
      4. Ted Williams
      5. Willie Mays
      6. Alex Rodriguez
      7. Hank Aaron
      8. Honus Wagner
      9. Lou Gehrig
      10. Mickey Mantle

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
        You make a very good case.

        Getting swept in 71 and 75 didn't help the A's. But winning 3 consecutive WS, with another round is hard and makes the 98-00 Yankees 3 in a row, with 3 rounds of playoffs, even more remarkable.

        I think that the travel is a little overrated. Losing Reggie in 72 hurt, but the A's were built on pitching. However, I will say that winning 6 series in a row (not all best of 7) is a feat and the A's are one of historiy's best teams. It's hard to compare them with the 49-53 Yanks, because of the extra round of playoffs. However the A's only had to beat out 5 others to make the playoffs, the Yankees had to beat out 7.
        yes but then again the modern Yanks would probably have not made the playoffs with their mediocre regular seasons in 1996 and 2000 if it were not for 3 smaller divisions
        1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
        2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
        3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
          Yankees by a mile. It's not close, really. The mid 70's Reds would have a better case.

          The point that they didn't have to travel for some of their series is irrelevant. Their opponents didn't have to travel either.
          not close?

          the A's are one of 4 teams (and the only non yankee team) to win 3 straight series and they were the first team to win 6 straight post season series (winning 21 post season games in 3 years, the 49-53 Yankes won 20 PS games in 5 years)

          Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig's Yankees never did it, Lefty Grove and Al Simmons and Connie Mack and Mickey Cochrane never did it, the great early deadball Giants, Cubs, Pirates or A's never did it, John McGraw's Giants of 1921-1924 won 4 straght pennants but lost two of the 4 WS, the 60s dodgers and cardinals never did it, the Mantle-Maris yankees won 5 straght pennants but lost 3 of the 5 WS and barely won one of the other 2, the 70s Reds could not do it, the 70s Orioles could not do it, the 76-78 Yankees came close, the 90s braves - not even close.

          and you can dismiss traveling but it is disruptive and the A's won 6 straight PS series with the traveling (almost always two series of traveling in each year, all to the east coast) the 49-53 yanks won 5 straight series with literally no traveling

          the a's did not have the HF advantage in 3 of their 5 alcs and 2 of their 3 WS

          I think there is value in that

          and you cant dismiss the extra round of playoffs and how it throws off your rotation for the series, not only did the 49-53 yankees never really have to deal with that, they had distinct advatages in 50 and 51 due to Simmons going to MS and the related need to use Roberts on the last game of the season and then the 51 nl playoffs

          there is an advantage that the yankees had that the a's did not

          and the yanks lost a hall of famer to free agency? NOT
          I guarantee you if the A's had Hunter in 75 they win easily over boston and had at least a 50-50 chance vs the Reds


          or played a WS without their best player? NOT
          Last edited by 9RoyHobbsRF; 09-24-2012, 11:23 PM.
          1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
          2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
          3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
            5) Once again, in 1951 the Yankees had a comfortable pennant win while the Giants had to go thru a 3 game playoff to reach the series. The Yanks did not have Whitey Ford in 1951 or 1952 due to MS, but their big three had 5 days rest each before the series started while The Giants were forced to use their 4th or 5th best pitcher in game 1 and the others had less rest than their Yankee counterparts. The Giants took a 2-1 series lead before the Yanks ran the table the next 3. The subway series did have a 1 game break between game 3 and 4, I am wondering why? Otherwise they played consecutive days for games 1-2-3 and 4-5-6.
            I'm pretty sure the gap between Games 3 & 4 was due to a rainout. I think some people believe that that rainout cost the Giants the Series, because it killed their momentum and let the Yankees get back in it. I don't completely buy the idea of "momentum," but it's interesting to hear about how it felt to those who were there.

            As far as the A's go, while I'm not sure they were as great as those Yankees were, I do think in some ways their run was a more impressive achievement. The Yankees were already a wealthy, established franchise by 1949, but those A's were built on a shoestring budget after a long period of awfulness.
            Baseball Junk Drawer

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            • #7
              I will say this about those A's they are one of the most untalked about three-peat teams going. You never hear them mentioned, even in passing, as one of the great teams. Part of it may be that they lack an iconic player or two. Their biggest stars were Reggie and Catfish and each has been diminished since then. Also much of the story about them was on off the field, be it the manager, owner or the teams own infighting, which detracted form how good they really were.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
                not close?

                the A's are one of 4 teams (and the only non yankee team) to win 3 straight series and they were the first team to win 6 straight post season series (winning 21 post season games in 3 years, the 49-53 Yankes won 20 PS games in 5 years)

                Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig's Yankees never did it, Lefty Grove and Al Simmons and Connie Mack and Mickey Cochrane never did it, the great early deadball Giants, Cubs, Pirates or A's never did it, John McGraw's Giants of 1921-1924 won 4 straght pennants but lost two of the 4 WS, the 60s dodgers and cardinals never did it, the Mantle-Maris yankees won 5 straght pennants but lost 3 of the 5 WS and barely won one of the other 2, the 70s Reds could not do it, the 70s Orioles could not do it, the 76-78 Yankees came close, the 90s braves - not even close.

                and you can dismiss traveling but it is disruptive and the A's won 6 straight PS series with the traveling (almost always two series of traveling in each year, all to the east coast) the 49-53 yanks won 5 straight series with literally no traveling

                the a's did not have the HF advantage in 3 of their 5 alcs and 2 of their 3 WS

                I think there is value in that

                and you cant dismiss the extra round of playoffs and how it throws off your rotation for the series, not only did the 49-53 yankees never really have to deal with that, they had distinct advatages in 50 and 51 due to Simmons going to MS and the related need to use Roberts on the last game of the season and then the 51 nl playoffs

                there is an advantage that the yankees had that the a's did not

                and the yanks lost a hall of famer to free agency? NOT
                I guarantee you if the A's had Hunter in 75 they win easily over boston and had at least a 50-50 chance vs the Reds


                or played a WS without their best player? NOT
                The Yanks won 5 straight. The A's won 3. Not comparable.

                In two out of the three years that the A's won the WS, 1973 and 1974, they didn't even have the best record in the American League, the Baltimore Orioles did. Thanks to the newly introduced divisional play, the A's didn't need to be the best team in the league in order to win a pennant. The Yankees had to be the very best in the league, year in and year out - and I'll repeat, they won FIVE straight World Series, while the A's won three - Two of which they wouldn't have even had the opportunity to play in before 1969.
                My top 10 players:

                1. Babe Ruth
                2. Barry Bonds
                3. Ty Cobb
                4. Ted Williams
                5. Willie Mays
                6. Alex Rodriguez
                7. Hank Aaron
                8. Honus Wagner
                9. Lou Gehrig
                10. Mickey Mantle

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
                  the Mantle-Maris yankees won 5 straght pennants but lost 3 of the 5 WS and barely won one of the other 2, .

                  and you can dismiss traveling but it is disruptive and the A's won 6 straight PS series with the traveling (almost always two series of traveling in each year, all to the east coast) the 49-53 yanks won 5 straight series with literally no traveling



                  and you cant dismiss the extra round of playoffs and how it throws off your rotation for the series,
                  there is an advantage that the yankees had that the a's did not

                  NOT
                  Whats wrong with barely winning, isn't that what good teams do.


                  1972 ALCS----Oakland 3 games---Detroit 2 games----------WS Oakland 4---Cinci 3
                  1973 ALCS----Oakland 3 Games---Balt. 2 Games----------WS Oakland 4---Mets 3

                  I certainly would not take anything away from the A's, just got by but that shows how good they were.

                  Travel conditions non issue. Your comparing the A's travel conditions to the Yanks
                  You should be comparing the travel conditions to the A's and their opponents in their time, all things equal.
                  Maybe a small advantage depending on where the WS begins.

                  Whats with the extra round of playoffs upsetting pitching rotation for the series.
                  Once again your comparing a condition that both teams faced in their time period.
                  What advantage did that give the Yanks in their time, all teams played under the same conditions and post season schedules.
                  Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 09-25-2012, 06:21 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
                    and the yanks lost a hall of famer to free agency? NOT
                    No, but some guy named Dimaggio retired in the middle of it.
                    My top 10 players:

                    1. Babe Ruth
                    2. Barry Bonds
                    3. Ty Cobb
                    4. Ted Williams
                    5. Willie Mays
                    6. Alex Rodriguez
                    7. Hank Aaron
                    8. Honus Wagner
                    9. Lou Gehrig
                    10. Mickey Mantle

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Whats wrong with barely winning, isn't that what good teams do.


                      the point was Mccoveys screaming liner is two feet to the left or right and they lose 1962 as well
                      1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                      2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                      3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Travel conditions non issue

                        that is your opinion

                        playing 5 world series with no travel in 4 of them and only one 2 game 90 mile trip on the 5th is something that should nor be summarily dismissed
                        1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                        2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                        3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          they didn't even have the best record in the American League, the Baltimore Orioles did. Thanks to the newly introduced divisional play, the A's didn't need to be the best team in the league in order to win a pennant. The Yankees had to be the very best in the league, year in and year out

                          12 team league vs 8 team league

                          really?

                          and then by your logic they WOULD have made the series in 1975
                          Last edited by 9RoyHobbsRF; 09-25-2012, 07:46 AM.
                          1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                          2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                          3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Looking at the teams on paper, here's what I see :

                            The A's had more heavy hitters at the very top. Reggie, Joe Rudi, Tenace, & Bando. The Yankees really only had a young Mantle and DiMaggio for a little bit. But the Yankees really had better batting overall because they were simply more well rounded and had a deeper bench. So I see Yankees with the offensive edge.

                            They A's had much better pitching, especially at the top. And since they were entering the era of relief pitching being more of a specialty, their bullpen was a big advantage. So advantage A's.

                            Seems pretty even so far.

                            But I give the edge over all to the A's. Reason? Defense. The top of the Yankee's D was Rizzuto, and no one else was really as top notch. But the A's had Billy North, Reggie Jackson, Joe Rudi, and of course Campenaris. They were all, at the time, much better than anything the Yankees had.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
                              they didn't even have the best record in the American League, the Baltimore Orioles did. Thanks to the newly introduced divisional play, the A's didn't need to be the best team in the league in order to win a pennant. The Yankees had to be the very best in the league, year in and year out

                              12 team league vs 8 team league

                              really?
                              Having the best record in an 8 team league for five consecutive years is more impressive than finishing first three times (one of those three times they tied for most wins but had more losses - but I'll give them credit for first) and finishing in second place a couple of times in a 12 team league.

                              Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
                              and then by your logic they WOULD have made the series in 1975
                              That's true. It still wouldn't be as impressive as winning five straight pennants and World Series, though.
                              My top 10 players:

                              1. Babe Ruth
                              2. Barry Bonds
                              3. Ty Cobb
                              4. Ted Williams
                              5. Willie Mays
                              6. Alex Rodriguez
                              7. Hank Aaron
                              8. Honus Wagner
                              9. Lou Gehrig
                              10. Mickey Mantle

                              Comment

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