Who's Better, Who's Best in Baseball (2005) Top 75 Players

[1905 Giants]

Here's Elliot Kalb's Top 75 Players as of 2005 (and I do highly recommend this book).

1) Barry Bonds
2) Babe Ruth
3) Willie Mays
4) Hank Aaron
5) Walter Johnson
6) Ty Cobb
7) Ted Williams
8) Honus Wagner
9) Alex Rodriguez
10) Josh Gibson
11) Lou Gehrig
12) Mickey Mantle
13) Christy Mathewson
14) Lefty Grove
15) Satchel Paige
16) Oscar Charleston
17) Mike Schmidt
18) Rogers Hornsby
19) Tris Speaker
20) Grover Alexander
21) Joe Dimaggio
22) Stan Musial
23) George Brett
24) Jimmie Foxx
25) Sandy Koufax
26) Roger Clemens
27) Joe Morgan
28) Nap Lajoie
29) Pedro Martinez
30) Rickey Henderson
31) Eddie Collins
32) Greg Maddux
33) Bob Feller
34) Johnny Bench
35) Warren Spahn
36) Randy Johnson
37) Frank Robinson
38) Yogi Berra
39) Bob Gibson
40) Shoeless Joe Jackson
41) Pete Rose
42) Cy Young
43) Tom Seaver
44) Cal Ripken Jr.
45) Tony Gwynn
46) Eddie Mathews
47) Steve Carlton
48) Mel Ott
49) Ken Griffey Jr.
50) Carl Hubbell
51) Roy Campanella
52) Reggie Jackson
53) Sammy Sosa
54) Mike Piazza
55) Paul Waner
56) Carl Yastrzemski
57) Roberto Clemente
58) Jackie Robinson
59) Harmon Killebrew
60) Johnny Mize
61) Mark McGwire
62) Mariano Rivera
63) Derek Jeter
64) Al Simmons
65) Ivan Rodriguez
66) Juan Marichal
67) Manny Ramirez
68) Martin Dihigo
69) Dave Winfield
70) Charlie Gehringer
71) Duke Snider
72) Whitey Ford
73) Buck Leonard
74) Eddie Murray
75) Carlton Fisk

So, what do you think?

[ol' aches and pains]

Got a teeny little problem with no. 1.

[PVNICK]

He likes to stir the pot. He did one with basketball and named Shaq #1.

[fenrir]

Got a teeny little problem with no. 1.

Looks like he wrote this book back in 2005, when there was far less information out there about steroid use in baseball. It's possible he's changed his opinion now, and may rank players such as Bonds, Arod, Clemens, etc, lower. Then again, maybe he doesn't care about steroids.

[Yankillaz]

Let him be. He's got Mantle #12 and Dimaggio #21, so he's fine. (Are we still with that?)

[1905 Giants]

Big ne for me is Josh Gibson at #10. Little high, unless he actually did all the legendary stuff people say.

[pheasant]

In 2004 when Barry hit his 700th HR, many people I was with at a huge Vegas sports bar were booing the TV. Everybody was convinced that he was on steroids. The talk of Ruth came up huge. But this guy obviously didn't factor in steroids in 2005, so I can see why he put Barry #1. I don't necessarily agree with it. But it's not far off at all. The others in the top are pretty close. I have A-rod up there in the top 10 as well. Josh Gibson's rating is pushing it, but who knows there. I would say that most of his position players are pretty close.

However, the pitching choices stick out like a sore thumb.

He has Walter Johnson 4th, yet Cy Young 42nd. He has Koufax ahead of Clemens, Pedro, Maddux, Bob Gibson, and Bob Feller. Koufax, a 165 game winner in an era of the high strike zone and high mound beats the very best from the steroid era with the low mound and tiny strike zone. Pedro and Clemens also had to deal with the DH.

[JR Hart]

I'm sure that it's a good read. Obviously, IMO DiMaggio is about 10 spots too low. I have a hard time rtanking the Negro League players, because so much of it is Paul Bunyan stuff. Tony Gwynn is ranked way too high. It's not a terrible list.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Big ne for me is Josh Gibson at #10. Little high, unless he actually did all the legendary stuff people say.

He has Gibson that high but he leaves off the great Sadaharu Oh completely off his list?

[9RoyHobbsRF]

I have the book - I would recommend reading it to get his REASONING rather than just off the cuff remarks based on a list

[Bothrops Atrox]

In 2004 when Barry hit his 700th HR, many people I was with at a huge Vegas sports bar were booing the TV. Everybody was convinced that he was on steroids. The talk of Ruth came up huge. But this guy obviously didn't factor in steroids in 2005, so I can see why he put Barry #1. I don't necessarily agree with it. But it's not far off at all.

.

As long as he is consistent re: PEDS. Don't put A-Rod in the top 15, but kick Bonds off the list, for example.

Anyway, Sosa WAY too high, even with full PED credit. Same with McGwire. Whitey Ford way too high too. Musial and Rickey too low. Dave Winfield WAY too high.

[willshad]

I would love to see how he justifies putting A-rod as high as number 9. I realize his steroid use wasn't known at that time, but he could not have had more than 9 full seasons in when the book was being written.

[brett]

Big ne for me is Josh Gibson at #10. Little high, unless he actually did all the legendary stuff people say.

Agree with that. I tend to squeek him into my top 25 (MLB plus list) but he may have had trouble with breaking pitches and if we see him as a catcher, how long could he have really played there? The MLB record is around 2200 games. Was he a better hitter than Frank Robinson who is at #37 (way too low)? And no way he lasts that long at catcher. I figured he's be a lot like a Kiner, Stargell, Reggie Jackson, Piazza type hitter playing solid catcher. As BEST a Frank Robinson/Jimmy Foxx type hitter but cut back by the demands of catching to maybe 2200 games, and a fairly short prime.

And I can't possibly put him above Charleston.

Frank Robinson at #37? Mel Ott at 48?

Its an interesting list though that seems to combine saber type value (Morgan) with historical standing.

I had Bonds around 1 or 2 in 2005, but even had he not used, I would drop him to #3 today because I think he was a little overrated on defense.

Kaline not in the top 25?
Love Brett, but with pitchers he's more like 35.
And Yaz at 56?

Still, I have no problem weighing history, and talent and championship performance strongly in balance with regular season saber-type value. If it was a saber list, it wouldn't make a book, just list 75 players with their score.

[leecemark]

--I don't think his player rating are really unreasonable. Sure you can quibble over a few guys, but ignoring steroids and doing some LQ adjusting it is a pretty fair list. He really drops the ball on pitchers though.

[GiambiJuice]

I don't have a problem with Bonds at #1, but Stan Musial at #22 is just hilariously low.