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Which Positional best Defensive player was the greatest offensive player?

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  • Which Positional best Defensive player was the greatest offensive player?

    Of the 8 positional players who might be considered the best ever at their position defensively, who was the best offensively?

    name your all time defensive team based soley on defense
    C
    1B
    2B
    3B
    SS
    LF
    CF
    RF

    then tell us of those 8 who was the best offensive player
    1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
    2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
    3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

  • #2
    I was coming up with a team and I had a thundershock: Smith and Mazeroski pulling double plays? Magnificent.
    “There can be no higher law in journalism than to tell the truth and to shame the devil.” Walter Lippmann

    "Fill in any figure you want for that boy (Mantle). Whatever the figure, it's a deal." - Branch Rickey

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    • #3
      P- Jim Kaat
      C - Johnny Bench
      1B- Keith Hernandez
      2B- Bill Mazeroski
      3B- Brooks Robinson
      SS- Ozzie Smith
      LF-
      CF- Willie Mays
      RF- Roberto Clemente

      Don't have an LF yet...but I got a suggestion for Yaz.
      Last edited by 1905 Giants; 09-28-2012, 11:20 PM.
      “There can be no higher law in journalism than to tell the truth and to shame the devil.” Walter Lippmann

      "Fill in any figure you want for that boy (Mantle). Whatever the figure, it's a deal." - Branch Rickey

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      • #4
        Barry Bonds is arguably the greatest defensive LF of all time, so he'd likely be the best hitter among the all-time defensive team.
        Baseball Junk Drawer

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        • #5
          of the guys you mentioned it's clearly mays. although it can be disputed if mays is the best defensive cf.
          I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

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          • #6
            Maybe Nellie Fox at 2B?

            I think Yaz was a better LFer than Bonds, especially after Bonds bulked up.

            From what I've read in his biography and miscellaneous quotes, contemporaries of Speaker believed he was better than Mays. There is always the slight bias toward Mays because we have film of him and people who saw him are still around. Not arguing for either.

            Wouldn't Rodriguez be the better defensive catcher than Bench?
            "Allen Sutton Sothoron pitched his initials off today."--1920s article

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            • #7
              C: 1) I-Rod, 2) Johnny 3) Bench/Gary Carter/Bob Boone
              1B: 1) Hernandez, 2) Helton, 3) Pete O'Brien
              2B: 1) McPhee, 2) Mazeroski,3) Frank White/Bobby Grich/Frank Frisch
              3B: 1) Robinson, 2) Boyer, 3) Nettles/Bell/Jimmy Collins
              SS: 1) Smith, 2) Belanger, 3) Tinker
              LF: 1) Sheckard/Rickey Henderson/Cruz Sr.
              CF: 1) Andrew Jones, 2) Tris Speaker, 3) Max Carey/Dom Dimaggio/Curt Flood/Willie Mays
              RF: 1) Clemente, 2) Kaline, 3) Sam Rice/Tony Oliva/Ichiro

              Keep in mind that in LF Musial might challenge those guys if considered and I don't cut Henderson down for lasting so long.

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              • #8
                Honus Wagner, #1 at SS both def. & off.

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                • #9
                  I think we need to consider Charlie Bennett at Catcher.

                  And I always like to give a shout out to Ross Barnes at 2B.

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                  • #10
                    friends dont forget after naming your defensive team, name who was the BEST offensive player
                    1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                    2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                    3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by brett View Post
                      C: 1) I-Rod, 2) Johnny 3) Bench/Gary Carter/Bob Boone
                      1B: 1) Hernandez, 2) Helton, 3) Pete O'Brien
                      2B: 1) McPhee, 2) Mazeroski,3) Frank White/Bobby Grich/Frank Frisch
                      3B: 1) Robinson, 2) Boyer, 3) Nettles/Bell/Jimmy Collins
                      SS: 1) Smith, 2) Belanger, 3) Tinker
                      LF: 1) Sheckard/Rickey Henderson/Cruz Sr.
                      CF: 1) Andrew Jones, 2) Tris Speaker, 3) Max Carey/Dom Dimaggio/Curt Flood/Willie Mays
                      RF: 1) Clemente, 2) Kaline, 3) Sam Rice/Tony Oliva/Ichiro

                      Keep in mind that in LF Musial might challenge those guys if considered and I don't cut Henderson down for lasting so long.


                      Of the guys at #1 I'd say Henderson is the best offensive. Clemente is close.

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                      • #12
                        Trying to get a grip on the intent of the poster who started the thread, I'll assume that, with defense ratings being so debatable, I'll use very competent defenders very well regarded for defensive play as well as their outstanding relative hitting skills.[while they were playing and with later fans who eschewed second-guessing stereotypes].

                        C; Bill Dickey
                        1B: Bill Terry ... although Jimmie Foxx was solid and versatile [C, 1B, IF, OF]
                        2B: Charlie Gehringer ... [although a fair evaluation would consider Rogers Hornsby [had there been GG's, he would have been in the running in1920,1921, 1924 ..........and 1927 ... at least]
                        3B: Mike Schmidt
                        SS: Alex Rodriguez
                        *LF: Babe Ruth
                        CF: Tris Speaker
                        RF: Dave Parker

                        *Added later, as edit: Barry Bonds is a better FIRST candidate in LF. Ruth then would be #2.
                        Last edited by leewileyfan; 09-29-2012, 12:48 PM.

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                        • #13
                          ^ thanks for participating and nice list but in the OP i stated:

                          name your all time defensive team based soley on defense
                          1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                          2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                          3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
                            ^ thanks for participating and nice list but in the OP i stated:

                            name your all time defensive team based soley on defense
                            Hate to correct you; but that is NOT precisely what you wrote. But first, these added points/questions:

                            I thought I had made it very clear that I was, indeed considering DEFENSE first. Your response, quoted above, prompts me to ask these questions:

                            1. Given that I have put defense first, what metric or what expert opinion are you citing to refute any poster's selection [given that they comply with your defense premium + impressive offense? You yourself admitted that players MIGHT BE considered "best" defensively.

                            2. Did you have an infallible LIST of predetermined winners, against which all other nominees are just plain "wrong?"

                            3. What have you against Bill Terry at 1B? Was the "mechanical man" not an excellent defender? Has Mike Schmidt somehow become less outstanding as a defender? I believe we have debated Hornsby before; so I won't go into that bog again. Was A-Rod not an excellent SS before the Big Apple shunted him to 3B? Were Ruth and Meusel not the dueling "arms:" and was Ruth not a star OF, with excellent range, before his appetities wrecked him? Did Dave Parker not excel as a RF, with power as well, that surpassed others at the position better "known" for their defense? Are you calling out Bill Dickey for some glaring flaws in his defense?

                            4.
                            :Of the 8 positional players who might be considered the best ever at their position defensively, who was the best offensively?
                            To me, THOSE word are your operative invitation for posters to participate. The mere fact that you contradict yourself with the added, yet redundant caution:
                            : name your all time defensive team based solely on defense
                            kinda throws offense onto the trash heap.

                            If you communicate what it is that you want, you might get responses that you find more palatable.

                            I don't believe defensive "bests" are determinable in absolute terms. Too many variables: peak, top seasons, awards, career ... subjectivity ... and unfounded and unfortunate second-guesses base more on personality than playing ability. If you had really wanted just the "Best defenders at each position, we have been on that topic many times before; so I wouldn't have jumped back on the Merry-Go-Round for yet another trip.
                            Last edited by leewileyfan; 09-29-2012, 11:17 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Not to take this off topic, but there's likely to be a majority with Ozzie Smith as the best defensive shortstop. Numbers I suppose support that, but was Ozzie simply a product of the Astroturf era? Many times that I saw him play along with seeing so many highlight clips, Ozzie had a tendency to throw one-hoppers to first base. That's great when you're playing more than 75% of your games on the carpet. But how would it work today being that practically every team plays on grass which can create many more bad hops and such on those throws. He was no Shawn Dunston of course, but did he have the arm strenght needed to reach first on a line from deep in the hole?
                              "Chuckie doesn't take on 2-0. Chuckie's hackin'." - Chuck Carr two days prior to being released by the Milwaukee Brewers

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