Heinie Manush vs Al Oliver

[TomBodet]

This one has become a cliche on Messageboards, heck Rob Neyer even compared the 2. Okay, is it valid and who was better? Oliver by a bit I think. Discuss.

[1905 Giants]

Alright, I'll be in on this one tonight after work.

[1905 Giants]

OK, here we go:

OPS+: Tie (121)
WAR: Manush (41.5 in 17 seasons to 40.2 in 18)
BA vs. League: Tie (41 Points)
SLG vs. League: Manush (65 points to 64 points)
OBP vs. League: Manush (19 points to 15 points)
RC/Game: Manush (6.8 to 5.4)

MVP Voting: Manush (4 top tens to 3 top tens)
BA Top 10: Tie (Both 9 times with 1 win)
OBP Top 10: Manush (3 to 1)
SLG Top 10: Manush (5 to 2)
OPS Top 10: Manush (4 to 1)
TB Top 10: Manush (5 to 4 although Oliver is the only one of the two to finish first in this category)
2B Top 10: Oliver (9 to 6, although both led 3 times)
3B Top 10: Manush (7 with 1 win to 3 with no wins)
OPS+ Top Ten: Manush (5 to 2)
XBH Top Ten: Tie (5 apiece, although Oliver is the only one of the two to lead in the category)
RC Top Ten: Manush (6 to 3, although Oliver is the only one of the two to lead in the category)

Black Ink: Oliver (16 to 15)
Gray Ink: Manush (142 to 127)
HoF Monitor: Manush (137 to 116)
HoF Standard: Manush (46 to 40)

LQ: Really up for debate but I say that Manush played in the time he played in and did what he did and I'm not going to knock him because he didn't play integrated ball.

In this match-up, although I used to be a HUGE Al Oliver supporter for the HOF, I take Manush.

[TomBodet]

Pretty good. What about the defense?

[Freakshow]

OK, here we go:

OPS+: Tie (121)
WAR: Manush (41.5 in 17 seasons to 40.2 in 18)
BA vs. League: Tie (41 Points)
SLG vs. League: Manush (65 points to 64 points)
OBP vs. League: Manush (19 points to 15 points)

This marks the end of any meaningful analysis. It shows the two players as being virtually indistinguishable.

RC/Game: Manush (6.8 to 5.4)

Manush's leagues had a much higher level of offense: Manush AIR 110; Oliver AIR 95.

MVP Voting: Manush (4 top tens to 3 top tens)
BA Top 10: Tie (Both 9 times with 1 win)
OBP Top 10: Manush (3 to 1)
SLG Top 10: Manush (5 to 2)
OPS Top 10: Manush (4 to 1)
TB Top 10: Manush (5 to 4 although Oliver is the only one of the two to finish first in this category)
2B Top 10: Oliver (9 to 6, although both led 3 times)
3B Top 10: Manush (7 with 1 win to 3 with no wins)
OPS+ Top Ten: Manush (5 to 2)
XBH Top Ten: Tie (5 apiece, although Oliver is the only one of the two to lead in the category)
RC Top Ten: Manush (6 to 3, although Oliver is the only one of the two to lead in the category)

Black Ink: Oliver (16 to 15)
Gray Ink: Manush (142 to 127)

Manush tends to do better in top 10 because the comparison is slanted for him. Heinie played in 8-team leagues; Oliver played in 12+-team leagues. "How many top-15's did Oliver have" would be on a similar level as Manush's top 10's.

HoF Monitor: Manush (137 to 116)
HoF Standard: Manush (46 to 40)

These favor players in high-offense eras. In any case, they are not measures of quality so much as predictors of what HOF voters are likely to do.

[pheasant]

Wow. Excellent breakdown, 1905 Giants. You saved me a ton of time. I wouldn't have done anything differently except one thing. I add a modest LQ boost for Al Oliver, which squeaks him ahead of Manush. Of course, it's reasonable to say that Oliver took advantage of expansion twice, so Manush shouldn't be penalized. But I have always assumed a linear increase in quality throughout time, so I will stick with Oliver.

[TomBodet]

"Obliging Young Lady" with Edmond O'brien is playing now, and the infamous 'Heinie Manush-Heinie Manush-Heinie Manush click- clack song' scene just played. Right on cue. Name rhymed with bush, Fyi.

[leecemark]

Pretty good. What about the defense?

--I'd have to give the edge to Oliver here. He was mostly a CFer in his youth, while Manush was mostly a LFer. Oliver was hardly spectacular in CF but he was good enough that the Pirates were satisfied to run him out there while winning 5 division titles in 6 years. Oliver was actually probably a better firstbaseman than an outfielder, but his teams needed him in CF and he held his own.

[TomBodet]

You hear different things on Manush's glove, the Baseball Page called him a natural born dh, others say he was better than average in Lf. His fielding pct fwiw was good, range ok, arm not so hot. If you hit it to him he caught it at the least, made the plays you expected a corner of to make.