Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Roger Clemens vs. Tom Seaver

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Roger Clemens vs. Tom Seaver

    Here are two of the greatest pitchers in the history of the game. Clemens won 354 games, struck out 4,672 batters and tossed 118 complete games. He led the league in wins four times and ERA seven times.

    Seaver, for his part, won 311 games, had 3,640 strikeouts and completed 231 games. He led the league in wins thrice and three times paced the loop in ERA. He even outpaced Clemens in career ERA, 2.86 to 3.12.

    Legends they are...but which one was better?
    36
    Roger Clemens
    63.89%
    23
    Tom Seaver
    36.11%
    13

  • #2
    I picked Seaver for obvious reasons. Clemens was the better pitcher had he been clean though.
    "(Shoeless Joe Jackson's fall from grace is one of the real tragedies of baseball. I always thought he was more sinned against than sinning." -- Connie Mack

    "I have the ultimate respect for Whitesox fans. They were as miserable as the Cubs and Redsox fans ever were but always had the good decency to keep it to themselves. And when they finally won the World Series, they celebrated without annoying every other fan in the country."--Jim Caple, ESPN (Jan. 12, 2011)

    Comment


    • #3
      If I include Clemens' steroids years, then I have him as the best ever. If he was clean until the end of 1998, then I have clean Clemens still beating out Tom Seaver. Clemens pitched in the AL against the DH with the short mound and tiny strike zone against a league full of sluggers. His clean years still crack the top 5 all-time for me, assuming a normal decline. I.e, Clemens is to pitching as Bonds was to hitting.

      Comment


      • #4
        I'll repeat what I said in the Clemens vs. Mathewson thread. If you ignore or don't care about the steroid issue with Clemens, then he wins. If you do, then it depends on how much you adjust for it.

        If I remember correctly, Bill James in his "Historical baseball abstract" said these two had an argument to be considered the best pitcher ever. Obviously that was written well before Clemens career ended, so I imagine Bill would probably rank Clemens #1 now as I'm pretty certain he doesn't really care about steroids.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by fenrir View Post
          I'll repeat what I said in the Clemens vs. Mathewson thread. If you ignore or don't care about the steroid issue with Clemens, then he wins. If you do, then it depends on how much you adjust for it.

          If I remember correctly, Bill James in his "Historical baseball abstract" said these two had an argument to be considered the best pitcher ever. Obviously that was written well before Clemens career ended, so I imagine Bill would probably rank Clemens #1 now as I'm pretty certain he doesn't really care about steroids.
          Wow

          respect for Bill James!

          you mean that he just looks at what what he knows and throws out rumor, inuendo, hearsay, and conjecture?

          what a concept

          It's Clemens, but close longevity is the deciding factor
          This week's Giant

          #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

          Comment


          • #6
            I have Clemens in my top 10 but he would probably be number one for me but I doubt he would have lasted as long without the steroids. I don't really think steroids made him into a Barry Bonds type of pitcher but I don't think he gets 300 wins or 4000 strikeouts without the roids.
            "(Shoeless Joe Jackson's fall from grace is one of the real tragedies of baseball. I always thought he was more sinned against than sinning." -- Connie Mack

            "I have the ultimate respect for Whitesox fans. They were as miserable as the Cubs and Redsox fans ever were but always had the good decency to keep it to themselves. And when they finally won the World Series, they celebrated without annoying every other fan in the country."--Jim Caple, ESPN (Jan. 12, 2011)

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
              Wow

              respect for Bill James!

              you mean that he just looks at what what he knows and throws out rumor, inuendo, hearsay, and conjecture?

              what a concept

              It's Clemens, but close longevity is the deciding factor
              Not sure what you are trying to indicate. I'm not saying what Bill James claims is gospel, but I do find it interesting that he did argue that these two particular pitchers had an argument as the best ever. I just was throwing that out there.

              Comment


              • #8
                It's funny that even now Seaver is the only man in history to throw nine straight seasons of 200+ strikeouts.
                "Here's a crazy thought I've always had: if they cut three fingers off each hand, I'd really be a great hitter because then I could level off better." Paul Waner (lifetime .333 hitter, 3,152 lifetime hits.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Buzzaldrin View Post
                  It's funny that even now Seaver is the only man in history to throw nine straight seasons of 200+ strikeouts.
                  He almost had 11 straight years if not for one year where he had 196 strikeouts.
                  "(Shoeless Joe Jackson's fall from grace is one of the real tragedies of baseball. I always thought he was more sinned against than sinning." -- Connie Mack

                  "I have the ultimate respect for Whitesox fans. They were as miserable as the Cubs and Redsox fans ever were but always had the good decency to keep it to themselves. And when they finally won the World Series, they celebrated without annoying every other fan in the country."--Jim Caple, ESPN (Jan. 12, 2011)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by fenrir View Post
                    Not sure what you are trying to indicate. I'm not saying what Bill James claims is gospel, but I do find it interesting that he did argue that these two particular pitchers had an argument as the best ever. I just was throwing that out there.
                    I'm saying that if James doersn't care about steroids, he's smart. So much of the steroids cloud is unknown.
                    This week's Giant

                    #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I went with Clemens here.
                      “There can be no higher law in journalism than to tell the truth and to shame the devil.” Walter Lippmann

                      "Fill in any figure you want for that boy (Mantle). Whatever the figure, it's a deal." - Branch Rickey

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Clemens for sure

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by chicagowhitesox1173 View Post
                          He almost had 11 straight years if not for one year where he had 196 strikeouts.
                          wouldn't that be ten?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Joltin' Joe View Post
                            wouldn't that be ten?
                            He had 200 strikouts the year after he had 196.
                            "(Shoeless Joe Jackson's fall from grace is one of the real tragedies of baseball. I always thought he was more sinned against than sinning." -- Connie Mack

                            "I have the ultimate respect for Whitesox fans. They were as miserable as the Cubs and Redsox fans ever were but always had the good decency to keep it to themselves. And when they finally won the World Series, they celebrated without annoying every other fan in the country."--Jim Caple, ESPN (Jan. 12, 2011)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by chicagowhitesox1173 View Post
                              He had 200 strikouts the year after he had 196.
                              Oh ok gotcha.

                              Comment

                              Ad Widget

                              Collapse
                              Working...
                              X