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Where do you rank Mo Vaughn historically?

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  • Where do you rank Mo Vaughn historically?

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...aughmo01.shtml

    one of the greats

  • #2
    Mo Vaughn was one of the Top 70 1B of all time.

    Offensively, Vaughn had 6 heavy-hitting, All Star quality seasons. But with only 12 seasons, an early retirement due to knee problem, and defensive issues, I can't rank him among the greats or the near-greats.

    I always forget that he was generally a .300 batter. He didn't look like one. That average came down towards the tail end of career, but in his 20s he was pretty consistent.

    I'd lump him in with Ted Kluszewski, Jake Daubert, Boog Powell, Hal Trosky, & Henry Larkin.

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    • #3
      --There have been alot of 1B who had a run of big seasons with the bat, but weren't able to sustain it over their careers (many, including Vaughn, weren't even able to last to a long career). Klusewski, Powell, Trosky, Fournier, Mayberry, Thornton, Cooper, Camilli, Mattingly and no doubt others who aren't coming to mind fit this profile. None are in the Hall of Fame and none should be. I'd put Vaughn somewhere in this group, but I'd be hard pressed to say exactly where.

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      • #4
        The only positive thing I can say about Mo Vaughn's tenure as a Met was the sandwich named after him:



        In 2002, baseball player Mo Vaughn introduced the "Mo-Licious Sandwich," a heaping pile of pastrami, corned beef, turkey and cheese on rye bread, at New York's Carnegie Deli. Credit: Robert Rosamilio / Associated Press
        The Mets have the best, smartest fans in baseball.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Blue387 View Post
          The only positive thing I can say about Mo Vaughn's tenure as a Met was the sandwich named after him:



          In 2002, baseball player Mo Vaughn introduced the "Mo-Licious Sandwich," a heaping pile of pastrami, corned beef, turkey and cheese on rye bread, at New York's Carnegie Deli. Credit: Robert Rosamilio / Associated Press
          LOL I forgot what an awful GM Steve Phillips was. I actually liked Phillips as an ESPN analyst, then he got fired for adultery.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by dgarza View Post
            Mo Vaughn was one of the Top 70 1B of all time.

            Offensively, Vaughn had 6 heavy-hitting, All Star quality seasons. But with only 12 seasons, an early retirement due to knee problem, and defensive issues, I can't rank him among the greats or the near-greats.

            I always forget that he was generally a .300 batter. He didn't look like one. That average came down towards the tail end of career, but in his 20s he was pretty consistent.

            I'd lump him in with Ted Kluszewski, Jake Daubert, Boog Powell, Hal Trosky, & Henry Larkin.
            This.

            That 5-year run is damned impressive, but it's 5 years. And as much as defensive metrics, for 1B particularly, don't really tell the whole tale (ref. Bill James on Buckner's assists), those are really pretty bad. His career would look better (and he may have lasted longer) had he remained a DH for his whole career.
            Found in a fortune cookie On Thursday, August 18th, 2005: "Hard words break no bones, Kind words butter no parsnips."

            1955 1959 1963 1965 1981 1988 2017?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by dgarza View Post
              I always forget that he was generally a .300 batter. He didn't look like one.
              He certainly didn't. With his portly physique and his deep crouch, standing in the batter's box, it didn't look like he could bring the bat around quick enough. Then seemingly out of nowhere, his bat came around like a whip and he would just crush the ball. In his prime, the guy had some bat speed!

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              • #8
                The most impressive stat of his '95 MVP season might be the 11 SB (w/4 CS). How in the world?
                Found in a fortune cookie On Thursday, August 18th, 2005: "Hard words break no bones, Kind words butter no parsnips."

                1955 1959 1963 1965 1981 1988 2017?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by toomanyhatz View Post
                  And as much as defensive metrics, for 1B particularly, don't really tell the whole tale (ref. Bill James on Buckner's assists), those are really pretty bad.
                  Mo was a marvelous hitter, but otherwise a huge liability. His fielding stats are really bad. Since James compared Garvey and Buckner, a lot more data has come in: for example, assists to 2d and home, double plays started, and bunts fielded--leaving aside zone ratings and other arcana. Mo led the league in errors 7 times.

                  Here are some comparisons with Pujols, not that Mo should be expected to match Pujols--nobody does--but to show how MUCH the difference is between near perfection and someone who is supposedly hidden in a safe position. (Pujols has faced about 6% more batters with a 35% to 31% edge in ground balls in play. Also, Pujols faced pitchers so probably saw more bunts.) Pujols is listed first:

                  Balls fielded 3189 2377
                  Caught in air 732 639
                  Tag outs 330 176
                  1B unassisted 1159 966
                  Total assists 1242 667
                  Assists 1B 824 409
                  Assists 2B 247 119
                  Assists Home 41 25
                  Relay 37 49
                  Errors 86 130
                  DP's started 143 79 (GB 120 60)
                  Bunts fielded 136 01
                  Bunt Out % 81, 74

                  The baserunning doesn't look any better, despite the 11 for 15 stolen bases. So if anyone is wondering why Mo only gets 24 WAR for 12 years, the record of a league-average player, look upon his works and weep.
                  Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

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                  • #10
                    I definitely rank Vaughn as one of Steve Phillips' top 5 worst signings.
                    My top 10 players:

                    1. Babe Ruth
                    2. Barry Bonds
                    3. Ty Cobb
                    4. Ted Williams
                    5. Willie Mays
                    6. Alex Rodriguez
                    7. Hank Aaron
                    8. Honus Wagner
                    9. Lou Gehrig
                    10. Mickey Mantle

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                    • #11
                      Low enough that I don't worry about his historical relevance.
                      1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                      1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                      1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                      The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                      The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

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                      • #12
                        11 posts and no mention of PED's in this thread yet? I'm stunned.
                        Lou Gehrig is the Truest Yankee of them all!

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                        • #13
                          Interesting that Mark Teixeira is listed as his most similar player, and yet Tex has almost twice as many lifetime WAR in about the same number of games. They seem about equals at this point, with Mo having the better peak.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by willshad View Post
                            Interesting that Mark Teixeira is listed as his most similar player, and yet Tex has almost twice as many lifetime WAR in about the same number of games. They seem about equals at this point, with Mo having the better peak.
                            With an ever-so-slight difference in fielding ability.:hyper:
                            Found in a fortune cookie On Thursday, August 18th, 2005: "Hard words break no bones, Kind words butter no parsnips."

                            1955 1959 1963 1965 1981 1988 2017?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by willshad View Post
                              Interesting that Mark Teixeira is listed as his most similar player, and yet Tex has almost twice as many lifetime WAR in about the same number of games. They seem about equals at this point, with Mo having the better peak.
                              Similarity scores do not account for defense or base-running at all. As toom said, Mo was significantly worse at fielding every single year, which makes a huge WAR difference.

                              Similarity scores also do not factor park.
                              1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                              1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                              1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                              The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                              The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

                              Comment

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