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Chet Lemon vs Tony Oliva

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  • Chet Lemon vs Tony Oliva

    Really I can't resist. Hall of stats guys are sure this is so. Lemon>Oliva. To me, Lemon was J.D. Drew kinda, but hardly better than Oliva or Kirby. Did I miss something?
    Last edited by TomBodet; 11-11-2012, 07:40 PM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by TomBodet View Post
    Really I can't resist. Hall of stats guys are sure this is so. To me, Lemon was J.D. Drew kinda, but hardly better than Oliva or Kirby. Did I miss something?
    The Hall of Stats is a brand new site/idea from a moderately known sabermetrician. I doubt many will know what you are referring too. Maybe you should provide some background or the link.
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    • #3
      Naw you've already done the honors in the Mo Vaughn is overrated thread.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by TomBodet View Post
        Naw you've already done the honors in the Mo Vaughn is overrated thread.
        Suit yourself.
        1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

        1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

        1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


        The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
        The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

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        • #5
          Originally posted by TomBodet View Post
          Really I can't resist. Hall of stats guys are sure this is so. Lemon>Oliva. To me, Lemon was J.D. Drew kinda, but hardly better than Oliva or Kirby. Did I miss something?
          This is a good comparision. Lemon was a good all around player. But Oliva could rake and should be in the HOF. It's Tony O!!
          Last edited by JR Hart; 11-11-2012, 09:48 PM.
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          • #6
            --Lemon was pretty good at everything*, but great at nothing. He played the more difficult position and played it better. He probably had a little better power and definately had a better eye. He also stayed healthy and in CF most f his career, while Oliva's knees drove him to DH fairly early and ended his career prematurely. Add it all up and almost certainly Lemon had the more valuable career.
            --However, Oliva WAS the greater player at his best and his #1 tool, hitting for average, stands out more than any of Lemon's. If I had to pick one for the Hall of Fame I'd pick Oliva.
            *Lemon was fast, but not really a good baserunner. He had terrible instints out there and made more blunders than anybody else I've seen play a great deal. OTOH, most of what I saw of Oliva was after a couple knee surgeries and he could bareky run at all by then.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
              This is a good comparision. Lemon was a good all around player. But Oliva could rake and should be in the HOF. It's Tony O!!
              Tony Oliva lead the AL in hits 5 times in his first 9 years before his knee woes became completely debilitating. He also lead the AL in Slugging and won a Gold Glove and a ROY. His 289 in 1968, the Year of the Pitcher was good enough for 3rd. in the AL. The Twins went to the 1965 WS, came close in 1967 and won the AL West in 69 and 70.

              I remember Frank Messer commenting in 1971, after Oliva edged out Bobby Murcer for the AL batting crown; that Oliva was on track to a career better than Roberto Clemente's seeing as how Clemente was only a fairly good hitter the first 1/3 of his career.

              Oliva did enough for me to vote for him for the HOF. He dominated an important statistical category while providing significant defense for teams that often contended.

              One thing I remember is that Oliva often threw his bat while following through. Vlad Guerrero always reminded me of a super-sized Tony Oliva.

              http://stevegallanter.wordpress.com
              Last edited by Steven Gallanter; 11-15-2012, 08:06 PM.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by TomBodet View Post
                Really I can't resist. Hall of stats guys are sure this is so. Lemon>Oliva. To me, Lemon was J.D. Drew kinda, but hardly better than Oliva or Kirby. Did I miss something?
                Lemon played for 16 years. In the first two he was breaking in, and in his next to last he stunk. The rest of the time he ranged from good to very good.

                Tony played for 15 years and was a thrilling player for eight. For the rest of them added together, his WAR is negative. It's unreasonable to ask him to match Lemon's 14 productive years in 8. He'd have to average over 6 WAR/year. (WAR is just a convenient measurement. It could all be spelled out, just take longer.)

                It was really sad when he tore up his knee, and the fact that Lemon outranks him is a minor consequence in context.

                Interesting thing about Lemon's baserunning--He was a 43% base stealer, got caught 78 times. But on regular baserunning advances, he took the extra base 55% of the time, which is Ricky Henderson territory.
                Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

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                • #9
                  As noted, Lemon had 1000 more PA and a longer career. For the old school guys Chet Lemon ranks ahead of Oliva in career runs produced, (977+884-215) 1646 to (871+947-220) making him the greater offensive player over his career, for people who get all hot and bothered over raw counting numbers (or "saber stats") without factoring in playing time.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
                    As noted, Lemon had 1000 more PA and a longer career. For the old school guys Chet Lemon ranks ahead of Oliva in career runs produced, (977+884-215) 1646 to (871+947-220) making him the greater offensive player over his career, for people who get all hot and bothered over raw counting numbers (or "saber stats") without factoring in playing time.
                    And people who think defense has value.
                    Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

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                    • #11
                      Oliva did lead the league in RF putouts six times & RF assists twice.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by westsidegrounds View Post
                        Oliva did lead the league in RF putouts six times & RF assists twice.
                        Yes, so it was a tragedy when, in mid-career, he couldn't play defense (or hit a triple). He was so good that he still looks good after the accident, but compared to what he was when whole, it's nothing. He had half a hall of fame career, make it three fourths, he was that good.
                        Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

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                        • #13
                          Ah, Chester Lemon. He tried so hard to master the head first slide into first base. I don't recall him ever beating the play, but he seemingly tried it every time.
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Steven Gallanter View Post
                            Tony Oliva lead the AL in hits 5 times in his first 9 years before his knee woes became completely debilitating. He also lead the AL in Slugging and won a Gold Glove and a ROY. His 289 in 1968, the Year of the Pitcher was good enough for 3rd. in the AL. The Twins went to the 1965 WS, came close in 1967 and won the AL West in 69 and 70.

                            I remember Frank Messer commenting in 1971, after Oliva edged out bobby Murcer for the AL batting crown; that Oliva was on track to a career better than Roberto Clemente's seeing as how Clemente was only a fairly good hitter the first 1/3 of his career.

                            Oliva did enough for me to vote for him for the HOF. He dominated an important statistical category while providing significant defense for teams that often contended.

                            One thing I remember is that Oliva often threw his bat while following through. Vlad Guerrero always reminded me of a super-sized Tony Oliva.

                            http://stevegallanter.wordpress.com
                            you get a lot of hits by not walking like normal players

                            oliva was very poor at getting walks

                            he never led the league in TOB and in fact barelly finished 10th in 2 of the 5 years he led the league in hits
                            1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                            2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                            3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
                              As noted, Lemon had 1000 more PA and a longer career. For the old school guys Chet Lemon ranks ahead of Oliva in career runs produced, (977+884-215) 1646 to (871+947-220) making him the greater offensive player over his career, for people who get all hot and bothered over raw counting numbers (or "saber stats") without factoring in playing time.
                              umm so offensive baseball in the 80s equals offensive baseball in the 60s?

                              really?
                              1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                              2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                              3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

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