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Chet Lemon vs Tony Oliva

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  • jalbright
    replied
    Originally posted by leecemark View Post
    --Lemon was pretty good at everything*, but great at nothing. He played the more difficult position and played it better. He probably had a little better power and definately had a better eye. He also stayed healthy and in CF most f his career, while Oliva's knees drove him to DH fairly early and ended his career prematurely. Add it all up and almost certainly Lemon had the more valuable career.
    --However, Oliva WAS the greater player at his best and his #1 tool, hitting for average, stands out more than any of Lemon's. If I had to pick one for the Hall of Fame I'd pick Oliva.
    I'll agree with this. Oliva probably would have made the Hall but for the knee injury--Lemon never had to deal with anything so dramatic, yet still doesn't present a good HOF case.

    Leave a comment:


  • Captain Cold Nose
    replied
    Originally posted by TomBodet View Post
    Lemon was known as an under-achiever, overall. While with Sox he was underated, it was in Detroit he got the 'why isn't he better' rep. I can't see him as being Oliva's equal, but he was good too. The Lemon for the Hall bandwagon is parked right by Ben Oglivie's, neithers going anywhere fast.
    I haven't checked out the site you mentioned, but, really? A concerted argument for either man as a HOF'er that people are buying into?

    Sounds a bit more radical than the great majority of the SABR guys I've come across. Grain of salt.

    Leave a comment:


  • TomBodet
    replied
    Lemon was known as an under-achiever, overall. While with Sox he was underated, it was in Detroit he got the 'why isn't he better' rep. I can't see him as being Oliva's equal, but he was good too. The Lemon for the Hall bandwagon is parked right by Ben Oglivie's, neithers going anywhere fast.

    Leave a comment:


  • PVNICK
    replied
    Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
    umm so offensive baseball in the 80s equals offensive baseball in the 60s?

    really?
    wow did that go over your head.

    Leave a comment:


  • 9RoyHobbsRF
    replied
    Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
    So what?

    So he's not Gene Tenace!!

    Isn't hitting better than walking? what a silly post

    Oliva finished in the top 5 in TB, 6 times
    leading the league in hits is not as impressive if you simply have a ton of ABs because you don;t walk

    hey I like Oliva but he was not a guy who could add walks to his repertoire

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  • JR Hart
    replied
    Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
    you get a lot of hits by not walking like normal players

    oliva was very poor at getting walks

    he never led the league in TOB and in fact barelly finished 10th in 2 of the 5 years he led the league in hits
    So what?

    So he's not Gene Tenace!!

    Isn't hitting better than walking? what a silly post

    Oliva finished in the top 5 in TB, 6 times

    Leave a comment:


  • 9RoyHobbsRF
    replied
    Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
    As noted, Lemon had 1000 more PA and a longer career. For the old school guys Chet Lemon ranks ahead of Oliva in career runs produced, (977+884-215) 1646 to (871+947-220) making him the greater offensive player over his career, for people who get all hot and bothered over raw counting numbers (or "saber stats") without factoring in playing time.
    umm so offensive baseball in the 80s equals offensive baseball in the 60s?

    really?

    Leave a comment:


  • 9RoyHobbsRF
    replied
    Originally posted by Steven Gallanter View Post
    Tony Oliva lead the AL in hits 5 times in his first 9 years before his knee woes became completely debilitating. He also lead the AL in Slugging and won a Gold Glove and a ROY. His 289 in 1968, the Year of the Pitcher was good enough for 3rd. in the AL. The Twins went to the 1965 WS, came close in 1967 and won the AL West in 69 and 70.

    I remember Frank Messer commenting in 1971, after Oliva edged out bobby Murcer for the AL batting crown; that Oliva was on track to a career better than Roberto Clemente's seeing as how Clemente was only a fairly good hitter the first 1/3 of his career.

    Oliva did enough for me to vote for him for the HOF. He dominated an important statistical category while providing significant defense for teams that often contended.

    One thing I remember is that Oliva often threw his bat while following through. Vlad Guerrero always reminded me of a super-sized Tony Oliva.

    http://stevegallanter.wordpress.com
    you get a lot of hits by not walking like normal players

    oliva was very poor at getting walks

    he never led the league in TOB and in fact barelly finished 10th in 2 of the 5 years he led the league in hits

    Leave a comment:


  • Captain Cold Nose
    replied
    Ah, Chester Lemon. He tried so hard to master the head first slide into first base. I don't recall him ever beating the play, but he seemingly tried it every time.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jackaroo Dave
    replied
    Originally posted by westsidegrounds View Post
    Oliva did lead the league in RF putouts six times & RF assists twice.
    Yes, so it was a tragedy when, in mid-career, he couldn't play defense (or hit a triple). He was so good that he still looks good after the accident, but compared to what he was when whole, it's nothing. He had half a hall of fame career, make it three fourths, he was that good.

    Leave a comment:


  • westsidegrounds
    replied
    Oliva did lead the league in RF putouts six times & RF assists twice.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jackaroo Dave
    replied
    Originally posted by PVNICK View Post
    As noted, Lemon had 1000 more PA and a longer career. For the old school guys Chet Lemon ranks ahead of Oliva in career runs produced, (977+884-215) 1646 to (871+947-220) making him the greater offensive player over his career, for people who get all hot and bothered over raw counting numbers (or "saber stats") without factoring in playing time.
    And people who think defense has value.

    Leave a comment:


  • PVNICK
    replied
    As noted, Lemon had 1000 more PA and a longer career. For the old school guys Chet Lemon ranks ahead of Oliva in career runs produced, (977+884-215) 1646 to (871+947-220) making him the greater offensive player over his career, for people who get all hot and bothered over raw counting numbers (or "saber stats") without factoring in playing time.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jackaroo Dave
    replied
    Originally posted by TomBodet View Post
    Really I can't resist. Hall of stats guys are sure this is so. Lemon>Oliva. To me, Lemon was J.D. Drew kinda, but hardly better than Oliva or Kirby. Did I miss something?
    Lemon played for 16 years. In the first two he was breaking in, and in his next to last he stunk. The rest of the time he ranged from good to very good.

    Tony played for 15 years and was a thrilling player for eight. For the rest of them added together, his WAR is negative. It's unreasonable to ask him to match Lemon's 14 productive years in 8. He'd have to average over 6 WAR/year. (WAR is just a convenient measurement. It could all be spelled out, just take longer.)

    It was really sad when he tore up his knee, and the fact that Lemon outranks him is a minor consequence in context.

    Interesting thing about Lemon's baserunning--He was a 43% base stealer, got caught 78 times. But on regular baserunning advances, he took the extra base 55% of the time, which is Ricky Henderson territory.

    Leave a comment:


  • Steven Gallanter
    replied
    Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
    This is a good comparision. Lemon was a good all around player. But Oliva could rake and should be in the HOF. It's Tony O!!
    Tony Oliva lead the AL in hits 5 times in his first 9 years before his knee woes became completely debilitating. He also lead the AL in Slugging and won a Gold Glove and a ROY. His 289 in 1968, the Year of the Pitcher was good enough for 3rd. in the AL. The Twins went to the 1965 WS, came close in 1967 and won the AL West in 69 and 70.

    I remember Frank Messer commenting in 1971, after Oliva edged out Bobby Murcer for the AL batting crown; that Oliva was on track to a career better than Roberto Clemente's seeing as how Clemente was only a fairly good hitter the first 1/3 of his career.

    Oliva did enough for me to vote for him for the HOF. He dominated an important statistical category while providing significant defense for teams that often contended.

    One thing I remember is that Oliva often threw his bat while following through. Vlad Guerrero always reminded me of a super-sized Tony Oliva.

    Boston, Massachusetts Bartender Steve Gallanter is a big fan of baseball, America’s national pastime
    Last edited by Steven Gallanter; 11-15-2012, 09:06 PM.

    Leave a comment:

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