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  • Baseball's Hall of Shame?

    Have we had this before? If not, and if we can agree on how to do it, perhaps I'll start an election poll. But the idea is, the opposite of being a contributor- who's done the most to harm the game? Some suggestions for the premier class, listed alphabetically:

    Cap Anson - With six simple words- "get that n***** off the field"- baseball's biggest star set half a century of systematic racism into motion. It's partially explainable by his background, I suppose, and of course he can't be blamed for the continuation of it that came afterwards, but it's hard to say what might have happened otherwise- certainly John McGraw, among others, made at least half-hearted attempts to integrate the game years before it happened, and were met with immediate and near-complete resistance. Without baseball's most popular player being a willing spokesman for racism, might things have been different?

    Barry Bonds - While there's still an interesting discussion going on (mostly) about his playing ability, I figure it's worth examining how we feel about the poster boy for cheating. Yes, a lot of people cheated, and Bonds didn't talk out of both sides of his mouth to quite the degree some others listed here did, but nobody went to jail for them. And none of them had quite the ungodly spike in their numbers, which, while it may prove he had the most natural ability of any of the cheaters, also makes one wonder how anyone can possibly think that was just good conditioning and a short RF fence.

    Roger Clemens - The pitching version of Bonds. They have a lot in common- both were caught using then lied about their own complicity, and got other people to take the rap. The difference is Bonds was publicly inscrutable, Clemens took umbrage at the attack on his good name while throwing two allegedly close friends, and even his wife, under the bus.

    Donald Fehr - Presiding over the biggest and most rapid financial numbers increase in sports history impresses some people, and it's benefitted a good many players, but at what cost? The main direction he looked, in addition to players' pocketbooks, was "the other way." Not as embarrasing as Selig or Palmeiro in front of congress, but good lord- how was he able to mention the need for "reasonable cause" with a straight face in his testimony to congress? I get that his job is protecting the players, but is there any limit to how much he'll allow the public to be fleeced?

    Kenesaw Mountain Landis - A resolutely fair judge the likes of which we could use more of now, he was still, by most accounts, a hardline southern racist. Whether Bill Veeck's accusations of him refusing to allow the hiring of black players is fully accurate, he did preside over an era during which a majority of Americans, white and black, wanted to see baseball integrated. There are those who suspect that Branch Rickey had been planning on signing black players for a while, but only put the plan in motion after he knew that Landis was no longer around to block it. If that's true, Landis's public statement that black players were not banned by him or anyone else, was as blatant a lie as there's been in professional sports, and you've got to go some.

    Rafael Palmeiro - Another "close personal friend" of former Rangers owner George W. Bush, another huge hypocrite. Again, it's not even that he lied so much as he lied out of one side of his mouth while expressing outrage at anyone who would actually do the very thing that he had knowingly done and lied about. The fact that he was one of the best-liked players in the game at the time makes it even worse. There's a word for someone who can lie, cheat and steal while giving you the impression that he's the last person that would ever do such a thing- that word is "sociopath."

    Bud Selig - In addition to his horrible decisions regarding the All-Star Game, his two-faced statement to congress while throwing the Player's Union under the bus, and his aiding and abetting of Dodger, Met and Marlin ownership looting local economies for their own gain, he's also a mealy-mouthed creep who has done nothing to serve the game other than making sure more and more millionaires become multi-millionaires or billionaires. For this his yearly salary is close to $20 million a year. No wonder he keeps threatening to retire then signing up for more years of graft, complicity and abuse.

    So, any interest in such a project? Suggestions for nominees? If there's interest I can start thinking about how best to make it work
    Found in a fortune cookie On Thursday, August 18th, 2005: "Hard words break no bones, Kind words butter no parsnips."

    1955 1959 1963 1965 1981 1988 2017?

  • #2
    Originally posted by toomanyhatz View Post
    Have we had this before? If not, and if we can agree on how to do it, perhaps I'll start an election poll. But the idea is, the opposite of being a contributor- who's done the most to harm the game? Some suggestions for the premier class, listed alphabetically:

    Cap Anson - With six simple words- "get that n***** off the field"- baseball's biggest star set half a century of systematic racism into motion. It's partially explainable by his background, I suppose, and of course he can't be blamed for the continuation of it that came afterwards, but it's hard to say what might have happened otherwise- certainly John McGraw, among others, made at least half-hearted attempts to integrate the game years before it happened, and were met with immediate and near-complete resistance. Without baseball's most popular player being a willing spokesman for racism, might things have been different?

    Barry Bonds - While there's still an interesting discussion going on (mostly) about his playing ability, I figure it's worth examining how we feel about the poster boy for cheating. Yes, a lot of people cheated, and Bonds didn't talk out of both sides of his mouth to quite the degree some others listed here did, but nobody went to jail for them. And none of them had quite the ungodly spike in their numbers, which, while it may prove he had the most natural ability of any of the cheaters, also makes one wonder how anyone can possibly think that was just good conditioning and a short RF fence.

    Roger Clemens - The pitching version of Bonds. They have a lot in common- both were caught using then lied about their own complicity, and got other people to take the rap. The difference is Bonds was publicly inscrutable, Clemens took umbrage at the attack on his good name while throwing two allegedly close friends, and even his wife, under the bus.

    Donald Fehr - Presiding over the biggest and most rapid financial numbers increase in sports history impresses some people, and it's benefitted a good many players, but at what cost? The main direction he looked, in addition to players' pocketbooks, was "the other way." Not as embarrasing as Selig or Palmeiro in front of congress, but good lord- how was he able to mention the need for "reasonable cause" with a straight face in his testimony to congress? I get that his job is protecting the players, but is there any limit to how much he'll allow the public to be fleeced?

    Kenesaw Mountain Landis - A resolutely fair judge the likes of which we could use more of now, he was still, by most accounts, a hardline southern racist. Whether Bill Veeck's accusations of him refusing to allow the hiring of black players is fully accurate, he did preside over an era during which a majority of Americans, white and black, wanted to see baseball integrated. There are those who suspect that Branch Rickey had been planning on signing black players for a while, but only put the plan in motion after he knew that Landis was no longer around to block it. If that's true, Landis's public statement that black players were not banned by him or anyone else, was as blatant a lie as there's been in professional sports, and you've got to go some.

    Rafael Palmeiro - Another "close personal friend" of former Rangers owner George W. Bush, another huge hypocrite. Again, it's not even that he lied so much as he lied out of one side of his mouth while expressing outrage at anyone who would actually do the very thing that he had knowingly done and lied about. The fact that he was one of the best-liked players in the game at the time makes it even worse. There's a word for someone who can lie, cheat and steal while giving you the impression that he's the last person that would ever do such a thing- that word is "sociopath."

    Bud Selig - In addition to his horrible decisions regarding the All-Star Game, his two-faced statement to congress while throwing the Player's Union under the bus, and his aiding and abetting of Dodger, Met and Marlin ownership looting local economies for their own gain, he's also a mealy-mouthed creep who has done nothing to serve the game other than making sure more and more millionaires become multi-millionaires or billionaires. For this his yearly salary is close to $20 million a year. No wonder he keeps threatening to retire then signing up for more years of graft, complicity and abuse.

    So, any interest in such a project? Suggestions for nominees? If there's interest I can start thinking about how best to make it work
    Agreed with your selections, though I'd add Arod and other steroid users as well.

    Also, Pete Rose.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by toomanyhatz View Post

      Donald Fehr - Presiding over the biggest and most rapid financial numbers increase in sports history impresses some people, and it's benefitted a good many players, but at what cost? The main direction he looked, in addition to players' pocketbooks, was "the other way." Not as embarrasing as Selig or Palmeiro in front of congress, but good lord- how was he able to mention the need for "reasonable cause" with a straight face in his testimony to congress? I get that his job is protecting the players, but is there any limit to how much he'll allow the public to be fleeced?
      Isn't he helping burn the NHL to the ground? I found it a riot that they took him on. Good job having two work stoppages in the past 6 years. Enjoy your 20% fan support.

      I only laugh because I actually do support some of the pro-union guys - like Marvin Miller and yes, Scott Boras. I simply don't think Fehr - as much as he thinks he is - is in the same company as these two.
      "Chuckie doesn't take on 2-0. Chuckie's hackin'." - Chuck Carr two days prior to being released by the Milwaukee Brewers

      Comment


      • #4
        Marvin Miller, while I don't agree with everything he's done, is an intelligent and essentially moral man who was able to protect the needs of players while still realizing that a certain amount of compromise is necessary. He should be in the Hall of Fame.
        Found in a fortune cookie On Thursday, August 18th, 2005: "Hard words break no bones, Kind words butter no parsnips."

        1955 1959 1963 1965 1981 1988 2017?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by toomanyhatz View Post
          Marvin Miller, while I don't agree with everything he's done, is an intelligent and essentially moral man who was able to protect the needs of players while still realizing that a certain amount of compromise is necessary. He should be in the Hall of Fame.
          Absolutely agree. Like him or not, he was part of a massive change in the game as we know it, and every player in the league right now making more money than they know what to do with shoud thank him every day IMO.
          "Chuckie doesn't take on 2-0. Chuckie's hackin'." - Chuck Carr two days prior to being released by the Milwaukee Brewers

          Comment


          • #6
            I understand why they have them, given the increased chance for injury and what-not, but the NFL has it right, with non-guaranteed contracts. Many a MLB franchise has been saddled and hindered for years and years because they don't have them.

            Comment


            • #7
              These guys were all first rate [email protected]


              Ty Cobb
              Chris Brown
              Daryl Strawberry
              Milton Bradley
              Jimmy Piersall
              John McGraw
              Rogers Hornsby
              Albert Belle
              Lefty Grove
              Mickey Cochrane
              Billy Martin
              Dick Allen
              Pete Rose
              Denny McClain
              Barry Bonds
              Leo Durocher
              Dave Kingman
              This week's Giant

              #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

              Comment


              • #8
                a hall of shame without Rose and shoeless joe?
                I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Well, I'm open to suggestion for who to include, but I don't think Rose or Shoeless Joe damaged the game to the degree others I mention did. Rose mostly tarnished his own reputation, and I've never heard any suggestion that he played to anything less than the best of his abilities. Shoeless Joe was accused of colluding with the throwing of a series in which he hit .375. The one I probably should've included is Hal Chase.
                  Found in a fortune cookie On Thursday, August 18th, 2005: "Hard words break no bones, Kind words butter no parsnips."

                  1955 1959 1963 1965 1981 1988 2017?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Ben Grimm View Post
                    Isn't he helping burn the NHL to the ground? [...] Good job having two work stoppages in the past 6 years.
                    Odd that the same commissioner and ownership group who caused the last one is essentially intact but this one is still Fehr's fault.

                    He's more powerful than I thought!
                    3 6 10 21 29 31 35 41 42 44 47

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Kirby Puckett really made some bad choices.
                      "(Shoeless Joe Jackson's fall from grace is one of the real tragedies of baseball. I always thought he was more sinned against than sinning." -- Connie Mack

                      "I have the ultimate respect for Whitesox fans. They were as miserable as the Cubs and Redsox fans ever were but always had the good decency to keep it to themselves. And when they finally won the World Series, they celebrated without annoying every other fan in the country."--Jim Caple, ESPN (Jan. 12, 2011)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        What I'm thinking of is people who actually had a negative effect on the history of the game. There were some not terribly likeable people (Hornsby, Cobb, etc.) who, on balance, might have done more good than harm. The people I've mentioned above plus Hal Chase? Or is there anyone else that should really be including in the debut class?
                        Found in a fortune cookie On Thursday, August 18th, 2005: "Hard words break no bones, Kind words butter no parsnips."

                        1955 1959 1963 1965 1981 1988 2017?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
                          These guys were all first rate [email protected]


                          Ty Cobb
                          Chris Brown
                          Daryl Strawberry
                          Milton Bradley
                          Jimmy Piersall
                          John McGraw
                          Rogers Hornsby
                          Albert Belle
                          Lefty Grove
                          Mickey Cochrane
                          Billy Martin
                          Dick Allen
                          Pete Rose
                          Denny McClain
                          Barry Bonds
                          Leo Durocher
                          Dave Kingman
                          Why Cochrane?
                          Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
                          Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
                          Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
                          Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
                          Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
                            Why Cochrane?
                            Maybe because Pepper Martin stole 8 bases off him in the 31 series. I always thought of Cochrane as a pretty standup guy. The only other thing I can think of is he may have had a reputation as a lush but even if true that would put alot more players in the hall of shame too.

                            If were going by any type of player then Jake Powell would probably rank up there.
                            "(Shoeless Joe Jackson's fall from grace is one of the real tragedies of baseball. I always thought he was more sinned against than sinning." -- Connie Mack

                            "I have the ultimate respect for Whitesox fans. They were as miserable as the Cubs and Redsox fans ever were but always had the good decency to keep it to themselves. And when they finally won the World Series, they celebrated without annoying every other fan in the country."--Jim Caple, ESPN (Jan. 12, 2011)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Why Piersall? Innocent question, don't really know much about him.

                              Also, McGraw and Durocher were certainly crumudgeonly, and were probably major ******** at times, but I think their overall effect on the game was a positive one, particularly in terms of their racial attitudes, which were more enlightened than most.
                              Found in a fortune cookie On Thursday, August 18th, 2005: "Hard words break no bones, Kind words butter no parsnips."

                              1955 1959 1963 1965 1981 1988 2017?

                              Comment

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