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Top Non-PED User Sluggers of the 1990's.

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  • #16
    I don;t know id he can be considered a 'top slugger', but Moises Alou was a damn good hitter in his prime, who got almost no attention until he was the 'old guy' on the Mets late in his career. His 1998 and 2000 seasons were awesome, made even more impressive by the fact that he lost all of 1999 battling cancer.
    Kevin Mitchell is known for his great 1989 season, but his 1994 season may have been even better if not for the strike. He was second in the league in OPS+ that year to Bagwell.
    Mike Sweeney is often the brunt of critics, who say he made several all star teams just because the hapless Royals needed a representative. Lost in this is the fact that he really was a great hitter in his prime. From 1999-2002 he averaged 26 108 .324.
    Brian Giles has been all but forgotten, but from 1999-2003 he maintained a 157 OPS+, along with an average line of 34 105 .307, and a .426 On base percentage.

    Comment


    • #17
      Weird thread. How can we possibly know who the non-PED users were? It is complete speculation and any player identified in this thread as a non-user...there's probably a 75% chance or better that he used PEDs.
      My top 10 players:

      1. Babe Ruth
      2. Barry Bonds
      3. Ty Cobb
      4. Ted Williams
      5. Willie Mays
      6. Alex Rodriguez
      7. Hank Aaron
      8. Honus Wagner
      9. Lou Gehrig
      10. Mickey Mantle

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
        Weird thread. How can we possibly know who the non-PED users were? It is complete speculation and any player identified in this thread as a non-user...there's probably a 75% chance or better that he used PEDs.
        The thread is sponsored by Leonard Nimoy for the Vincent Price foundation...
        "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
          there's probably a 75% chance or better that he used PEDs.
          Scientific.
          "It's like watching a Western. It's slow, so you can watch the chess moves. Nothing seems to happen, but when it goes down, it goes down big." - Howard Bryant

          3 6 10 21 29 31 35 41 42 44 47

          Comment


          • #20
            ben grimm: One other could be Bobby Abreu, but seeing him first hand every year, he really got big all of a sudden back in '05 or '06.

            and just how big, exactly, did marvin bernard, wally joyner and benito santiago get?
            "you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. just get people to stop reading them." -ray bradbury

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by willshad View Post
              I don;t know id he can be considered a 'top slugger', but Moises Alou was a damn good hitter in his prime, who got almost no attention until he was the 'old guy' on the Mets late in his career. His 1998 and 2000 seasons were awesome, made even more impressive by the fact that he lost all of 1999 battling cancer.
              Kevin Mitchell is known for his great 1989 season, but his 1994 season may have been even better if not for the strike. He was second in the league in OPS+ that year to Bagwell.
              Mike Sweeney is often the brunt of critics, who say he made several all star teams just because the hapless Royals needed a representative. Lost in this is the fact that he really was a great hitter in his prime. From 1999-2002 he averaged 26 108 .324.
              Brian Giles has been all but forgotten, but from 1999-2003 he maintained a 157 OPS+, along with an average line of 34 105 .307, and a .426 On base percentage.
              Yea too bad he and Jason Kendall didn't come up together somewhere else.

              Giles came up with Cleveland. Too bad they didn't put it together somewhere else, I should say.
              Last edited by bluesky5; 12-10-2012, 03:26 PM. Reason: Giles
              "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

              Comment


              • #22
                bluesky5: There was a small "Inside Baseball" piece in this week's SI

                It focused on Fred McGriff. Mostly pointing out how he likely won't make the HoF because he simply is forgotten due to the inflated numbers put up by steroid users.


                this. is. ridiculous.
                and irresponsible.
                sports illustrated oughtta know better than to play fast and loose.
                "you don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. just get people to stop reading them." -ray bradbury

                Comment


                • #23
                  Frank Thomas. His brilliant run from 1991-1997 is sometimes underrated these days due to the massive numbers later put up by Mcgwire and especially Bonds. At the time he was often called the right-handed Ted Williams, and hell even Bill James said it was possible he could go down as the third greatest hitter ever after Ruth and Williams. Once Mcgwire and Bonds started posting off the charts numbers, Thomas's run from 1991-1997 seemed forgotten by many. His pretty mediocre decline phase didn't help either.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by fenrir View Post
                    Frank Thomas. His brilliant run from 1991-1997 is sometimes underrated these days due to the massive numbers later put up by Mcgwire and especially Bonds. At the time he was often called the right-handed Ted Williams, and hell even Bill James said it was possible he could go down as the third greatest hitter ever after Ruth and Williams. Once Mcgwire and Bonds started posting off the charts numbers, Thomas's run from 1991-1997 seemed forgotten by many. His pretty mediocre decline phase didn't help either.
                    His "mediocre" decline wouldn't look so "mediocre" had he decided to juice. Thomas will be remember by most as a legit HOFer and one of the very best hitters in his era.
                    "By common consent, Ruth was the hardest hitter of history; a fine fielder, if not a finished one; an inspired base runner, seeming to do the right thing without thinking. He had the most perfect co-ordination of any human animal I ever knew." - Hugh Fullerton, 1936 (Chicago sports writer, 1893-1930's)

                    ROY / ERA+ Title / Cy Young / WS MVP / HR Title / Gold Glove / Comeback POY / BA Title / MVP / All Star / HOF

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I hope so. Right now, I think he's still a little overshadowed. Maybe if steroid apologists ever start to face facts we can put him in proper perspective.
                      "It's like watching a Western. It's slow, so you can watch the chess moves. Nothing seems to happen, but when it goes down, it goes down big." - Howard Bryant

                      3 6 10 21 29 31 35 41 42 44 47

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I would literally put my life on Abreu and B. Giles
                        "By common consent, Ruth was the hardest hitter of history; a fine fielder, if not a finished one; an inspired base runner, seeming to do the right thing without thinking. He had the most perfect co-ordination of any human animal I ever knew." - Hugh Fullerton, 1936 (Chicago sports writer, 1893-1930's)

                        ROY / ERA+ Title / Cy Young / WS MVP / HR Title / Gold Glove / Comeback POY / BA Title / MVP / All Star / HOF

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          On or off?
                          "It's like watching a Western. It's slow, so you can watch the chess moves. Nothing seems to happen, but when it goes down, it goes down big." - Howard Bryant

                          3 6 10 21 29 31 35 41 42 44 47

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Los Bravos View Post
                            I hope so. Right now, I think he's still a little overshadowed. Maybe if steroid apologists ever start to face facts we can put him in proper perspective.
                            Thomas had none of the three keys to look for. Body type never changed dramatically, numbers never spiked and had a normal decline, and not even a mention what-so-ever of him juicing. Of course, apologists will poo-poo those factors but those are key. Thomas has none of the three.
                            "By common consent, Ruth was the hardest hitter of history; a fine fielder, if not a finished one; an inspired base runner, seeming to do the right thing without thinking. He had the most perfect co-ordination of any human animal I ever knew." - Hugh Fullerton, 1936 (Chicago sports writer, 1893-1930's)

                            ROY / ERA+ Title / Cy Young / WS MVP / HR Title / Gold Glove / Comeback POY / BA Title / MVP / All Star / HOF

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              What I mean is that all numbers aren't the same and the obstinante insistence of some PED apologists that they should be treated as such is a hinderance to knowing what players really accomplished legitimately.

                              I agree with you completely about Frank. What I'm saying is that his numbers shouldn't be found wanting by people who can't face the fact that McGwire, Sosa et. al. were taking a serious shortcut to pass him (to the extent that they did, even on paper.)

                              As you wrote earlier, his normal decline shouldn't be held against him. In fact, it should be seen a mark in his favor. His numbers are real, which is something too many players of his generation can't say.
                              "It's like watching a Western. It's slow, so you can watch the chess moves. Nothing seems to happen, but when it goes down, it goes down big." - Howard Bryant

                              3 6 10 21 29 31 35 41 42 44 47

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Los Bravos View Post
                                What I mean is that all numbers aren't the same and the obstinante insistence of some PED apologists that they should be treated as such is a hinderance to knowing what players really accomplished legitimately.

                                I agree with you completely about Frank. What I'm saying is that his numbers shouldn't be found wanting by people who can't face the fact that McGwire, Sosa et. al. were taking a serious shortcut to pass him (to the extent that they did, even on paper.)

                                As you wrote earlier, his normal decline shouldn't be held against him. In fact, it should be seen a mark in his favor. His numbers are real, which is something too many players of his generation can't say.
                                I agree that his normal decline phase shouldn't be held against him, but it is. Also, he had a drastic drop in production when he was still pretty young. I am still surprised he didn't have at least a few brilliant seasons left in his early 30's. Many clean players have performed well in their early to mid 30's. Sadly Thomas wasn't one of them.

                                Edit: He did have a 163 OPS+ at age 32, and finished second in MVP voting to a juiced up Giambi that year. Forgot about that.
                                Last edited by fenrir; 12-10-2012, 11:10 PM.

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