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Bobby Veach vs Carlos Delgado

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  • Bobby Veach vs Carlos Delgado

    I'm going to run a series of polls with the winner advancing each time to face another opponent. Will leave each poll up for a week. I'll try to provide as much statistical information as possible. Hopefully we can get some lively insightful debates going and bring to light some overlooked players from yesteryear.
    If you could pick between these two players to start your franchise with which would you pick? Please consider all relavent information. Their careers as a whole, peak performance, hitting, fielding, baserunning, positional value, league quality, etc.

    Bobby Veach

    1821 games
    7572 plate appearances
    6656 at-bats
    953 runs
    2063 hits
    393 doubles
    147 triples
    64 home runs
    1166 RBI
    195 stolen bases
    88+ caught stealing
    571 walks
    370 strikeouts
    .310 AVG
    .370 OBP
    .442 SLG
    .812 OPS
    127 OPS+
    2942 total bases
    1063 runs created
    5.8 RC/G
    95 AIR
    .652 OW%
    .786 Total Average
    .234 Secondary Average
    266.6 Win Shares
    123.6 WSAB
    44.1 rWAR
    52.5 fWAR
    44.0 sWAR

    Carlos Delgado

    2035 games
    8657 plate appearances
    7283 at-bats
    1241 runs
    2038 hits
    483 doubles
    18 triples
    473 home runs
    1512 RBI
    14 stolen bases
    8 caught stealing
    1109 walks
    1745 strikeouts
    .280 AVG
    .383 OBP
    .546 SLG
    .929 OPS
    138 OPS+
    3976 total bases
    1588 runs created
    7.7 RC/G
    110 AIR
    .678 OW%
    .974 Total Average
    .419 Secondary Average
    303.8 Win Shares
    161.2 WSAB
    40.5 rWAR
    46.3 fWAR
    47.7 sWAR

    Previous results

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    Juan Gonzalez vs Bobby Bonilla
    Juan Gonzalez vs Mickey Vernon
    Mickey Vernon vs Jose Canseco
    Mickey Vernon vs Carlos Delgado
    Carlos Delgado vs B.J. Surhoff
    Carlos Delgado vs Ken Griffey Sr
    Carlos Delgado vs Wally Joyner
    Carlos Delgado vs Cecil Cooper
    Carlos Delgado vs Jim Bottomley
    Carlos Delgado vs Harold Baines
    Carlos Delgado vs Chili Davis
    Carlos Delgado vs Steve Garvey
    Carlos Delgado vs Magglio Ordonez
    Carlos Delgado vs Paul O'Neil
    Carlos Delgado vs Dave Parker
    Carlos Delgado vs Moises Alou
    Carlos Delgado vs Jake Daubert
    Carlos Delgado vs George J Burns
    Carlos Delgado vs Felipe Alou
    Carlos Delgado vs Don Mattingly
    Carlos Delgado vs Hugh Duffy
    Carlos Delgado vs Al Oliver
    Carlos Delgado vs Dixie Walker
    Carlos Delgado vs Fred Tenney
    Carlos Delgado vs Chuck Klein
    Carlos Delgado vs Heinie Manush
    Carlos Delgado vs Rusty Staub
    Carlos Delgado vs Joe Judge
    Carlos Delgado vs Mark Grace
    Carlos Delgado vs Ed Konetchy
    Bobby Veach
    Carlos Delgado

    The poll is expired.

    My dream ballpark dimensions
    LF: 400 Feet...Height 37 Feet...LCF: 455 Feet...CF: 542 Feet...Height 35 Feet
    RCF: 471 Feet...RF: 400 Feet...Height 60 Feet
    Location....San Diego

  • #2
    I have to go with Veach. At first glance, it's Delgado by a longshot--but then you have to consider the era he played in. This was an era when guys like Jeromy Burnitz could reach the 300 home run mark--he was, as I said in a previous comparison, just another power hitter in a power hitter's time. Look at his black and grey ink, for example. He hit 473 home runs and had over 1,500 RBI, yet his inks are only eight and 124, respectively. Even Dave Kingman had higher black ink.

    On the other hand, Veach, who wasn't a power hitter, still managed inks of 22 and 170, respectively. He could draw a walk, rarely struck out (unlike Delgado, who Ked 127 times a year on average from 1996 to 2008), hit for extra bases--both doubles and triples--well. He maintained a higher average and an OPS+ that really isn't that much lower than Delgado's, plus his WAR (keeping in mind all its flaws) is higher.


    • #3
      I made up my mind before I read the above post. I too went with Veach because he was a bit closer to the top of his league. I know Delgado played in a larger integrated league but I also know Veach had a baserunning and defensive edge.


      • #4
        I have to go with Delgado on this one. The difference in league quality between the two is just too much for Veach to overcome. Yes, Veach did steal more bases but I'm not sure about his baserunning ability. The caught stealing data is missing for 1913, 1917-19. From 1914-16 Veach stole 60 bases, while being caught 54 times. A success rate of only 52.6%. If we apply the same success rate to the years that are missing he stole 83 bases while being caught 78 times making his career stolen base numbers 195 steals, 166 caught stealing or a 54% success rate. In otherwords he wasn't exactly helping his team. Delgado while no speedster had a 63% success rate.
        My dream ballpark dimensions
        LF: 400 Feet...Height 37 Feet...LCF: 455 Feet...CF: 542 Feet...Height 35 Feet
        RCF: 471 Feet...RF: 400 Feet...Height 60 Feet
        Location....San Diego


        • #5
          Veach was kinda Mr Manush, can't see either as Delgado's better.


          • #6
            Delgado, and it really isn't that close.

            People seem to want to penalize the steroid slugger two ways..first downgrading their raw stats because 'everybody hit home runs', and then saying that they had no black ink. To me, you can penalize them for one, but not the other...if everyone hit well, then obviously it will be harder to get black ink. if you have a lot of league leaderships, then almost by definition it means there was less competition for top talent. Delgado was also competing against roiders, which will obviously cut down his relative rates.

            Still, his relative rates surpass Veach's easily, in a longer career. If Veach had the better peak, it may make up for it, but Delgado's top seasons far surpass Veach's. His 2000 season was like prime Gehrig season, and he was probably the best hitter in the league that season, and in 2003 as well. Delgado had 8 seasons with over a 130 OPS+, 6 with over 140.. Veach had 5 and 3. Simply put, Delgado beats him in peak, had more really good seasons, and has more overall hitting value.

            Veach probably was more valuable in the field, but since both men were not known for their fielding, I don't give him much credit for that.

            If we are picking steroid era sluggers to compare Veach to, Moises Alou is probably a more apt comparison.
            Last edited by willshad; 12-15-2012, 11:48 AM.


            • #7
              Delgado is underrated and doesn't get a fair shake seems to me. I'd vote him for the Hall, not a problem. Ditto Fred McGriff.


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