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Mike Piazza vs Josh Gibson

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  • Originally posted by Yankillaz View Post
    I will. Thing is that the best things written about Olivo are in spanish. I'm going to mark that down as a thing to do in 2015 along with getting rid of my debts (on a good path), reducing 40 pounds of weight (ditto) and start a personal business besides my current job.
    Sounds good. I read through the entire SABR bio, it is a very good read. I only knew him as a reliever with a brief career, I didn't realize how old he was when he first came into MLB. When I saw his name in your post above, I wondered if it was the same guy. A quick check at baseball-reference told me he was, and the link to the excellent SABR bio project gave me a great head start. Give it a look, and see what else you could add. If nothing else, either the article itself or just bullet points of the main aspects of his career would be a great thread starter. Once you get it started, you will have to finish it! Kinda like a constant reminder to get it done.

    I can help, too. HWR digs up all kinds of amazing old newspaper articles. You can post his career stats around the different leagues around the area. We can get pictures and maybe even some video off youtube -- you never know until the thread gets created. I am excited to learn more about him. I love diving into unknown (for me) baseball history and learning about new stars and great stories.
    "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

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    • Originally posted by Los Bravos View Post
      The conspiracy is so vast and far reaching...
      The conspiracy is so big that seamheads and BB-Ref. have compiled unreliable statistics on Negro Leaguers and are passing them off to the general public as legitimate. I'm sure sultan, yankillaz and willshad are infiltrating the sites servers right now to end the spreading of dis-information.
      "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

      Comment


      • Ok Herr. Will do. Will begin with the Olivo SABR Bio.
        "I am not too serious about anything. I believe you have to enjoy yourself to get the most out of your ability."-
        George Brett

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        • Do MLB players get to add documented exhibition HR to their total?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
            Do MLB players get to add documented exhibition HR to their total?
            Good question.
            "I am not too serious about anything. I believe you have to enjoy yourself to get the most out of your ability."-
            George Brett

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Yankillaz View Post
              I love integration as much as the next guy. But I can't rank players that didn't played in the MLB.

              (Quick note: Many of you guys dismiss all the PED users so it's not that I'm the only one who dismiss great players.)

              We're saying best players ever? Ok. Let's see. This is an excerpt from wikipedia's list of professional baseball leagues:



              Some of the best players in these leagues, in their past could have been among the greatest players ever. We can't tell. I recall that here in BBF we went a step further with the listing and players like Saddaru Oh were ranked. Here in the Dominican Winter League the second best pitcher ever was Juan Marichal. You know, the guy that is a top 20/25 All Time Pitcher. The best pitcher ever, who obliterated the likes of every player who played here (many future HOFers like Willie Mays, Willie McCovey, Orlando Cepeda, etc...). And it wasn't even close. He's the Walter Johnson of dominican baseball. His name? Diomedes Olivo.

              This is his BB-Ref page:

              http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...livodi01.shtml

              And it wasn't that he came as a washed up player to MLB. He still had a lot in the tank despite being 41 when he threw his first MLB pitch. His stats here in DR, he's got all the pitching record



              So he still had something going after debuting in the MLB. But despite his talent, he didn't get chance to display his quality in the MLB for reasons unknown to me. We cannot translate accurately how a player will fare with a chance of scenery. Not everyone is a Jackie Robinson or and Ichiro Suzuki.

              First off, you might expect me to disagree. Boy I wanted to disagree, but you have made some solid points. Let me explain one though.

              "Some of the best players in these leagues, in their past could have been among the greatest players ever. We can't tell. "

              No, you are absolutely right. We can't. The ABL, the Australian Baseball League, might have indeed had the best players in the world in 1930-1946, or 1990-2010. We don't know. There is one difference however---one tiny little difference---to that league and the NeL.

              The NeL released to MLB the following players:

              1) Jackie Robinson 1947
              2) Larry Doby 1947
              3) Roy Campanella 1948
              4) Monte Irvin 1949
              5) Willie Mays 1951
              6) Ernie Banks 1953
              7) Hank Aaron 1954

              These included 3 who lost a significant part of their careers (Irwin started at 30, Robinson 28, and Doby 26.) Despite this, these players had a career 140 OPS+, 2,658 homers (1st, 3rd and 9th all time) and 9 MVP awards. Did the ABL produce that in MLB? Had they done that, you're darn right I would consider their players seriously. Darn right.

              And what if they told me that....."Oh, by the way, the best hitter in our league isn't even here." Really?!! Darn right I would consider that guy among the all-time greats. The one little problem is that none of the other leagues became a gold mine of talent. So, the comparison is apples to oranges.

              I don't need to see an IQ test to know that Einstein and Bohr were smart. And if those two told me that another guy who also didn't have an IQ test was even smarter I wouldn't doubt it for a second. No one would. But for some reason, that's what the NeL gets. There has to be an Inquisition, a smearing of all opinions, an undermining of any information lest someone might reach a sane conclusion that:


              1) we just saw the best of that league in MLB and they dominated

              and

              2) their best hitter isn't even here

              then

              3) that guy we didn't see must have been something else!


              Going into an attic and finding 15 old drawings from your kids when they were 10 is NOT the same as going into the attic and finding a Rembrandt, Picasso, and Van Gogh.

              Originally posted by willshad View Post
              People watching him play and giving their opinion means next to nothing....
              Obviously, we can't trust the opinions of real MLB super stars like DiMaggio, Williams, Dean or Feller to judge hitting talent. Wow. DiMaggio's, Williams', Dean's and Feller's opinions mean next to nothing. How do we know it means next to nothing? Well people who never saw any of them play said so. Got it.
              Last edited by drstrangelove; 02-10-2015, 11:44 AM.
              "It's better to look good, than be good."

              Comment


              • Good point Doc. But here we are ranking best position players of All Time. I can actually tell what those 7 guys did in integrated competition. I cannot tell what Oscar Charleston, Turkey Stearnes, Josh Gibson, Cool Papa Bell and others did, because for whatever injustice they couldn't play in integrated leagues. My rankings have one thing that impedes me from including them, and it's actual stats, and their relation to their peers and environment. I can say that Mike Piazza is the best hitting catcher ever, because I have data to compare with. I cannot do this with the NeL, and other wordly proffesional leagues.

                Could Josh Gibson outcome his personal demons and post a 15 year MLB career? Probably. He might have been the first and only catcher to hit 500 homeruns. Oh, wait, no catcher has done this since the position is so demanding that a consistent and lengthy career is difficult to accomplish. The position takes its toll. We don't know if Gibson had to squat for 154 games a year, or how he would have fared. Therefore I cannot compare him to MLB players.

                Does this means that he wasn't one of the most talented baseball players ever? Undoubtely.
                "I am not too serious about anything. I believe you have to enjoy yourself to get the most out of your ability."-
                George Brett

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
                  No possible way. The leagues were like 30 or 40 games and players bounced around. They couldn't keep track of all 18 players, let alone how many dingers were hit. It's a nice round number and it's more than 755 so maybe that's when the exaggerations started?
                  The Negro League teams barnstormed like crazy and played lots of games on trips between their actual league games. Often they would drive all night to make a noonish game in one small town and then immediately pile back in the bus to play a night game in another nearby town (sometimes bringing their own truck-mounted lights). This 800 HR stuff must come from some attempt to count these small potato games against semipro and town teams.
                  One of my favorite baseball stories was an account of a team featuring Bullet Joe Rogan arriving in some dusty town in Kansas or Oklahoma for a game...it was a huge event in this remote place. In normal circumstances the men might have felt less than welcome, but as baseball stars they were treated like royalty...allowed to set up base in the good hotel in town and then parading to the ballpark with the prominent folks in town. Two boys were chosen for the honor of holding Rogan's hands as the team walked to the park...and would have bragging rights over their friends as a result, possibly through the rest of their childhoods. With no major league teams nearby and no TV, this was the only way these people could see pro quality ball without making a long trip East.
                  "If I drink whiskey, I'll never get worms!" - Hack Wilson

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                  • I found his long and interesting Gibson article from 1970.

                    1970-02-22 The Spokesman-Review pg 7.jpg
                    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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                    • Originally posted by Dude Paskert View Post
                      The Negro League teams barnstormed like crazy and played lots of games on trips between their actual league games. Often they would drive all night to make a noonish game in one small town and then immediately pile back in the bus to play a night game in another nearby town (sometimes bringing their own truck-mounted lights). This 800 HR stuff must come from some attempt to count these small potato games against semipro and town teams.
                      One of my favorite baseball stories was an account of a team featuring Bullet Joe Rogan arriving in some dusty town in Kansas or Oklahoma for a game...it was a huge event in this remote place. In normal circumstances the men might have felt less than welcome, but as baseball stars they were treated like royalty...allowed to set up base in the good hotel in town and then parading to the ballpark with the prominent folks in town. Two boys were chosen for the honor of holding Rogan's hands as the team walked to the park...and would have bragging rights over their friends as a result, possibly through the rest of their childhoods. With no major league teams nearby and no TV, this was the only way these people could see pro quality ball without making a long trip East.
                      Yeah man, I respect the hell out of how they grinded. We talk about MLB players' hardships compared to today's modern luxuries. What Negro Leaguers dealt with was on a whole different levrl. There's no telling how those hardships hindered their development and production.

                      Great story too btw

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
                        And the same few people come back every time and reference barnstorming numbers.
                        At least we haven't seen the word "stevedores" so far in this thread, unless it slipped past me.
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                        • I need some help here. I'm trying to understand the path of this Gibson HR. I don't understand this description. Where exactly is the left field bullpen located? Maybe some of the Yankee Stadium experts can chime in here.


                          1970-02-22 The Spokesman-Review pg 7 HR.jpg

                          Yankee Stadium_1928-1936 marked.jpg..Yankee Stadium HR 1930.jpg
                          Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
                            I need some help here. I'm trying to understand the path of this Gibson HR. I don't understand this description. Where exactly is the left field bullpen located? Maybe some of the Yankee Stadium experts can chime in here.

                            "Yankee Stadium underwent more extensive renovations from 1936 through 1938. The wooden bleachers were replaced with concrete, shrinking the "death valley" area of left and center substantially, although the area was still much deeper than in most ballparks; and the second and third decks were extended to short right center. Runways were left between the bleachers and the triple-deck on each end, serving as bullpens." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yankee_Stadium_(1923)

                            Sounds like the area you circled is where the bullpens were per the description. My guess is that is where they were prior to the 1936-1938 renovation and that they were "left" there as they had been before.




                            By the way, thanks to both you and Shoeless for the articles. These are very much appreciated. The quotes from Wagner, Durocher, Paige, Dean and Campanella on Gibson are priceless. Throw in all the other quotes from Hack Wilson, Feller, DiMaggio, Williams, Povich and Rickey on the quality of the 1930's, 1940's NeL and you'd get the impression that Gibson was an amazing hitter and catcher.



                            YS late 1920's.jpg
                            Above.

                            Late 1920's YS. Reverse high angle shot you can see the runways where the bullpens probably were. (Left field is in clear view while right field is hard to make out.) Note the extreme height of the roofs. A lefty couldn't hit a fair ball out over the roof to right.

                            To the left side, Frank Howard reportedly cleared the left field roof going down the line, but it was called foul. (Several prominent Yankees claimed it was fair.) Regardless, a blast to hit the roof above the bullpen is insane.


                            YS 1932.jpeg
                            Above.

                            Different view of the right field seats and decks with the entrance to the RF bullpen in clear view. The roof is so high up the picture doesn't show it. On the left side of the photo, you can just make out where the field splits for the LF bullpen.


                            YS.jpg

                            Above. Not sure what year, but before 1936-1938. No lights on top of the left field roof and no concrete bleachers.
                            Last edited by drstrangelove; 02-10-2015, 03:14 PM.
                            "It's better to look good, than be good."

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
                              Do MLB players get to add documented exhibition HR to their total?
                              Why would you post this? No one has tried to give anyone extra home runs.
                              "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                              Comment


                              • He's exposing our nefarious, emotion-driven affirmative action efforts.
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