Mike Piazza vs Josh Gibson

[Bucketfoot]

I can remember seeing stats of Spotswood Poles vs Mlb, he did really well too. I always have accepted the greatness of all things Gibson, Mule, Mackey etc, I think in this era we're so used to be able to quantify things with a high
degree off accuracy--coming across an amorphous 'thing' such as the Negro Leaguers relative quality vs Ruth, Foxx, etc can be frustrating. I give Giibson and co the benefit of a doubt times 10, but nailing down just How many homers Mule and Josh hit or Would in the Majors...it's gotta be guesswork.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

Why would you post this? No one has tried to give anyone extra home runs.

So all 800 homers were hit in league games?

[Stolensingle]

And yes, Rice WAS considered the best and most dangerous hitter in the game in the late 1970s. If you had suggested that Schmidt or Jackson or Brett was better you would have been laughed at...he was not just considered the best in the game, but already an all time great ala Williams or Gehrig, or at least well on his way to becoming one. Nobody cared about his home field Fenway advantage (No, he didn't play in Coors). This is a guy that we HAD stats for, and people were still totally wrong about him.

No, people were not wrong about Rice. By the stats, he was one of the best hitters in the game in the late 70s, his 1978 season still stands as one of the great all-time offensive seasons. In the period 1977-79, he led the majors in HR, SLG and wOBA, and was third in BA, with a slash line of .320/.376/.596. His numbers were helped by Fenway, but his wRC+, which is park adjusted, during that period, 155, is close to, or slightly better than, the career values of Pujols, Musial, Mays, Aaron, F. Robinson, DiMaggio, and Thomas. During the same age range of 24-26, here are some other wRC+ values:

Aaron 158
Mays 162
F. Robinson 165

The problem is that Rice didn't continue to hit at that level. Except for 1983, he never came close to those numbers again. If he had, all the raves he received in the late 70s would have been more or less deserved.

Gibson did not just have a few brilliant years, by all accounts he was a beast throughout his career.

[Badge714]

So all 800 homers were hit in league games?

According to the link below Josh Gibson had 107 career home runs. If memory serves he had no home runs in the Negro League All-Star games.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/nl...d=gibson002jos

[willshad]

The people supporting Gibson are so caught up in the possibility of others not accepting that the NLers had great talent that they are not even listening to what other posters are actually saying. Nobody has yet said that Gibson did not possess great talent..he obviously had HOF level talent, as the people who saw him play could attest to. BUT..and I am going to put this in bold so maybe then people will actually pay attention to it:

THERE IS A WORLD OF DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HAVING HOF TALENT AND ACTUALLY HAVING A HOF CAREER.

Yes people have played with, and against Gibson, and have watched him play, and many respected and knowledgeable people have said he would have been an all time great in the major leagues. This does not change the fact that MANY people have had great talent and once they played at the highest level, in 154 or 162 game seasons, they could not live up to their potential. Some have been amazing for a year, or two, or five. Heck, if someone was watching a Mauer in 2009 or a Posey in 2012 they too might have said that those guys could hit like Piazza or Foxx. If someone had seen Rick Wilkins or Chris Hoiles only in 1993 they may have thought and sworn the same thing. The fact remains, though, that Piazza hit like that for at least ten seasons in a row, which no other catcher has come close to. This is a ridiculously high standard to set for Gibson or anyone else, and it would be crazy to assume he could do it when many others have failed. Even if he had played one major league season, at age 40, and put up MVP numbers, it would not change the fact that he did not have that major league career, and it would not mean in any way that he would have had that HOF career if given the chance. So many different things can happen to ruin it, that it is not fair to a guy like Piazza, who actually DID it, to make assumptions.

[Stolensingle]

Yes people have played with, and against Gibson, and have watched him play, and many respected and knowledgeable people have said he would have been an all time great in the major leagues. This does not change the fact that MANY people have had great talent and once they played at the highest level, in 154 or 162 game seasons, they could not live up to their potential. Some have been amazing for a year, or two, or five. Heck, if someone was watching a Mauer in 2009 or a Posey in 2012 they too might have said that those guys could hit like Piazza or Foxx.

But again, Gibson was not amazing for one or two or five years, he was a beast for his entire career. If guys like Mauer and Posey (or Rice) don't live up to their best seasons, it's not because they couldn't make it at the MLB level, it's because of a decline that would have happened at any level. Do you have any stats to back up your implied claim that a player can live up to his potential for an extended period of time at one level, but for only a short period of time at another level? Are there any players who tore up the bigs for a year or two, then slumped badly, but continued to play very well in the minors for a long period when they were occasionally called back up and still couldn't perform at their original level?

[1905 Giants]

But again, Gibson was not amazing for one or two or five years, he was a beast for his entire career. If guys like Mauer and Posey (or Rice) don't live up to their best seasons, it's not because they couldn't make it at the MLB level, it's because of a decline that would have happened at any level. Do you have any stats to back up your implied claim that a player can live up to his potential for an extended period of time at one level, but for only a short period of time at another level? Are there any players who tore up the bigs for a year or two, then slumped badly, but continued to play very well in the minors for a long period when they were occasionally called back up and still couldn't perform at their original level?

There have been great minor-leaguers who couldn't take on MLB level.

Maybe not the same, just felt it needed to be said.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

According to the link below Josh Gibson had 107 career home runs. If memory serves he had no home runs in the Negro League All-Star games.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/nl...d=gibson002jos

Ok thanks.

I wasn't sure. I know their league games were very short.

They don't even reference games played on that page, so how can we take the PA seriously?

Again, the guy was probably a flat out stud among his peers. He may have even stood out if allowed to play in the bigs. Actually I'd put money on it, especially if his mind was free and clear and he could hone his skills not only WITH better teammates, but AGAINST better competition.

The 800 thing though, the exaggeration about him hitting one out of YS, and the nickname, just screams of reaching for a hero. Trying to make him out as something he wasn't. My gut tells me Gibson didn't need that, and wouldn't have wanted that.

If I was to "ballpark" him as a hitter, I'd have him in the top 15, no doubt. Probably toward the back end, and that is generous, considering he was a catcher. We all know about the wear and tear. That's ASSUMING a healthy career.

I think some are rating him as if he was a DH or a 1Bman his whole career. I think he would have been incredible but it's still an extreme "what if." The conditions he experienced were harsh but in terms of on the ballfield, the exhibition environment was probably conducive to less injury...compared to a cut-throat, competitive, no holds barred league.

[drstrangelove]

No, people were not wrong about Rice. By the stats, he was one of the best hitters in the game in the late 70s, his 1978 season still stands as one of the great all-time offensive seasons. In the period 1977-79, he led the majors in HR, SLG and wOBA, and was third in BA, with a slash line of .320/.376/.596. His numbers were helped by Fenway, but his wRC+, which is park adjusted, during that period, 155, is close to, or slightly better than, the career values of Pujols, Musial, Mays, Aaron, F. Robinson, DiMaggio, and Thomas. During the same age range of 24-26, here are some other wRC+ values:

Aaron 158
Mays 162
F. Robinson 165

The problem is that Rice didn't continue to hit at that level. Except for 1983, he never came close to those numbers again. If he had, all the raves he received in the late 70s would have been more or less deserved.

Gibson did not just have a few brilliant years, by all accounts he was a beast throughout his career.

So, well said and explained.

All Park Factors have already been halved for use on full season stats.
Export Data
Season	  Team	 1B as L  1B as R    2B as L   2B as R	 3B as L   3B as R   HR as L	HR as R
2014	Red Sox	    102	    104	      117	 113	  112	      88	90	 102
2013	Red Sox	    102	    104	      117	 113	  112	      88	90	 102
2012	Red Sox	    102	    104	      117	 113	  112	      88	90	 102
2011	Red Sox	    102	    103	      116	 112	  112	      94	92	 103
2010	Red Sox	    102	    102	      119	 116	  103	      98	93	 102
2009	Red Sox	    102	    103	      119	 114	  101	      95	93	  99
2008	Red Sox	    100	    102	      121	 113	  100	      94	93	  96
2007	Red Sox	    101	     99	      122	 114	  108	      91	92	  97
2006	Red Sox	    102	    100	      122	 112	  105	      85	92	  97
2005	Red Sox	    104	    100	      116	 111	  110	      86	91	  99
2004	Red Sox	    102	     99	      113	 111	  108	      84	89	  99
2003	Red Sox	    102	     99	      113	 111	  108	      84	89	  99
2002	Red Sox	    102	     99	      113	 111	  108	      84	89	  99

Question (and no, I don't know the answer): Was handedness adjusted for in Rice's calculations or is handedness only something used since 2002? I think this chart from FG suggests that RH benefited more from Fenway than LH. Is that how you see it? If so, does the wRC+ calculation they used for 1977-1979 reflect this difference (between RH and LH) or does it only "deflate" RH's stats as if they are a composite of the RH/LH batters at Fenway.

I don't know, so if you tell me it's all adjusted for all the way back to the 70's, that's how I'll read it. But we've had many back and forth's over the seasons on this topic and I never knew (no one mentioned or I missed it when they did) that there was a handedness adjustment. I don't want to presume it's only for 2002-2014, but that's all that came up when I did the query.

This really isn't a "Rice" question. Rice was a top hitter for exactly and only those 3 years. Once you look at his best 4-year period he drops below Mattingly, Murray, Brett, Morgan, Jackson and Schmidt.

In fact Schmidt has 3 completely separate 4 year periods that beat Rice's best.

Once you extend out to 6 years he drops below Winfield. Rice is the answer to the trick question who was the best hitter in 1977-1979. He's not the answer to who's the best hitter of the 70's or the 80's or any span over 3 years, except those 3 years.

[JR Hart]

I don't rank NeL players in rankings or even try to compare them to players who played in more organized leagues. I sympathize with their plight. But the info that we have on them is just a cut above oral history. I've looked on Seamhaeds. Those stats are woefully incomplete. And with the league games, barnstorming, Mexican leagues, what is an official game that even merits a stat. To compare these guys to players who played strict, consistent schedules, with accurate stats, in the same parks, and in repeating years; is senseless. They don't use the stats of the Yankees as they barnstormed their way north after spring training. I don't know how many homers The Babe hit the day before his bellyache. Ruth probably has 1200 Hrs counting his barnstorming games.

I'm sure that many NeLers were very good and could compete on a high level in MLB back then. But we really don't know who would compete to what degree. I's OK to have a guess as to how good Josh Gibson will be , if he played MLB and where he ranks, but you are still guessing. IMO. if someone doesn't want to go down that guessing game road, it doesn't make them unsympathetic, it makes them realistic.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

I don't rank NeL players in rankings or even try to compare them to players who played in more organized leagues. I sympathize with their plight. But the info that we have on them is just a cut above oral history. I've looked on Seamhaeds. Those stats are woefully incomplete. And with the league games, barnstorming, Mexican leagues, what is an official game that even merits a stat. To compare these guys to players who played strict, consistent schedules, with accurate stats, in the same parks, and in repeating years; is senseless. They don't use the stats of the Yankees as they barnstormed their way north after spring training. I don't know how many homers The Babe hit the day before his bellyache. Ruth probably has 1200 Hrs counting his barnstorming games.

I'm sure that many NeLers were very good and could compete on a high level in MLB back then. But we really don't know who would compete to what degree. I's OK to have a guess as to how good Josh Gibson will be , if he played MLB and where he ranks, but you are still guessing. IMO. if someone doesn't want to go down that guessing game road, it doesn't make them unsympathetic, it makes them realistic.

Well said. You're not an evil person or an uneducated one. Just need more info to form a solid opinion. Nothing wrong with that.

I could float a ballpark but even that is an extreme guess. Some here think they have concrete numbers, even as they compare to known MLB stats...that's okay too. To each their own.

[3and2Fastball]

I'm sure that many NeLers were very good and could compete on a high level in MLB back then. But we really don't know who would compete to what degree. I's OK to have a guess as to how good Josh Gibson will be , if he played MLB and where he ranks, but you are still guessing. IMO. if someone doesn't want to go down that guessing game road, it doesn't make them unsympathetic, it makes them realistic.

I agree 100%

The thing is, it works both ways. One can assume they know how well Babe Ruth & Ty Cobb would hit in an integrated league, but it is only guessing, not factual.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

I agree 100%

The thing is, it works both ways. One can assume they know how well Babe Ruth & Ty Cobb would hit in an integrated league, but it is only guessing, not factual.

I don't see the comparison.
Were looking at what Cobb and Ruth played like under the conditions of MLB at that the time, compared to what Gibson played like under the conditions of the league he played in.
And the problem again, scant, yes scant stats a little over 2000 at bats.

We could go on for eternity with the way your attempting to compare the situation.No fault of his own, Gibson did not bat against or compete against the best white players at that time.
We can only go by "what did happen", in their leagues at the time they played.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

No, people were not wrong about Rice. By the stats, he was one of the best hitters in the game in the late 70s, his 1978 season still stands as one of the great all-time offensive seasons. In the period 1977-79, he led the majors in HR, SLG and wOBA, and was third in BA, with a slash line of .320/.376/.596. His numbers were helped by Fenway, but his wRC+, which is park adjusted, during that period, 155, is close to, or slightly better than, the career values of Pujols, Musial, Mays, Aaron, F. Robinson, DiMaggio, and Thomas. During the same age range of 24-26, here are some other wRC+ values:

Aaron 158
Mays 162
F. Robinson 165

The problem is that Rice didn't continue to hit at that level. Except for 1983, he never came close to those numbers again. If he had, all the raves he received in the late 70s would have been more or less deserved.

Gibson did not just have a few brilliant years, by all accounts he was a beast throughout his career.

For whatever reason, I hadn't run him through road rrOPS+ until just hearing his name....

                                                                  ROAD RELATIVE OPS++
                                                                                                                                                    (rrOPS+)            actual OPS+ in ( )
                           HOME/ROAD   LG SPECIFIC  (ROAD SA ÷ LG ROAD SA)            ...HOME/ROAD    LG SPECIFIC  .(ROAD OBP ÷ LG ROAD OBP)        ..(HOME PARK AS ROAD)         (rrOPS++)
                 .RAW SA     SA   SA     .ROAD SA         ROAD REL SA       RAW OBP    OBP  OBP      ROAD OBP         ROAD REL OBP      LG OPS+  (PITCHERS REMOVED)  (WEIGHTED FOR PLAYING TIME)

BiWilliams        .492     .525 /.459     .3683             1.246           .361     .374 /.349       .3118              1.119          93.66         129.1               130.6 (133)

Klein             .543     .618 /.466     .3729             1.249           .379     .410 /.346       .3255              1.062          93.35         125.9               118.5 (137)

Averill           .534     .588 /.478     .3930             1.216           .395     .421 /.368       .3396              1.083          93.61         124.3               117.5 (133)

Rice	          .502     .546 /.459     .3856             1.190           .352     .374 /.330       .3211              1.027          100.0         123.2               121.0 (128)

Berra             .482     .505 /.461     .3751             1.229           .348     .354 /.341       .3258              1.046          93.57         120.7               117.3 (125) - C

Boggs	          .443     .491 /.395     .4032             .9796           .415     .443 /.387       .3273              1.182          99.94         119.7               121.1 (131)

Fisk              .457     .469 /.444     .3808             1.165           .341     .350 /.331       .3199              1.034          99.12         118.3               118.0 (117) - C

KBoyer            .462     .480 /.443     .3756             1.179           .348     .357 /.340       .3107              1.094          92.86         117.6               114.5 (116)

Santo             .464     .522 /.406     .3680             1.103           .362     .383 /.342       .3101              1.102          93.33         115.5               114.5 (125)

TWalker('14-'23)  .348     .460 /.416     .3459             1.202           .342     .356 /.323       .3264              .9895          94.10         113.8               106.9 (119)

GCarter           .439     .447 /.430     .3663             1.173           .335     .348 /.322       .3141              1.025          93.73         112.9               111.6 (115) - C

JCarter           .464     .478 /.451     .3996             1.128           .306     .310 /.302       .3263              .9255          99.37         104.7               104.3 (105)

He loses 5 OPS+ points and that says he gained an advantage from his home park above and beyond what the league did, regardless of hand.

I really don't need to go over 1977-1979 (his "best" years) when he slugged .509, .512,.472 on the road. I could work the road relative but it's so absurd, not necessary.

I'll just show this.

        
                          ROAD RELATIVE SLUGGING EFFICIENCY                     
            
            .TB ÷ (AB - H)  ...HOME     .ROAD    LG SPECIFIC  (ROAD SLGeff ÷ LG ROAD SLGeff)
                SLGeff     SLGeff   -.SLGeff    ROAD SLGeff         ROAD REL SLGeff          LG OPS+         (HOME AS ROAD)

Ruth            1.048     1.068     1.029      .5058               2.034               94.00

Gehrig          .9583     .9236     .9921      .5424               1.829               93.76

TWilliams       .9667     1.020     .9143      .5018               1.822               93.57     

JDiMaggio       .8569     .7983     .9154      .5131               1.784               93.46

Hornsby         .8987     .9193     .8790      .5130               1.713               93.73

Cobb ('14-'28)  .8080     .7821     .8221      .4923               1.669               94.06

Aaron           .7978     .7993     .7964      .4995               1.594               93.56

BaBonds         .8645     .8833     .8471      .5323               1.591               93.95

Musial          .8354     .8770     .7967      .5035               1.582               93.13

Mantle          .7932     .8191     .7690      .4900               1.569               93.38

WMays           .7983     .8120     .7856      .5015               1.566               92.90

Foxx            .9030     1.011     .8091      .5238               1.544               93.60

Piazza          .7876     .7297     .8419      .5468               1.539               94.50 - C

Mize            .8170     .8795     .7576      .4972               1.523               93.46

Heilmann        .7905     .8071     .7751      .5093               1.521               93.94

BTerry          .7678     .7265     .8097      .5334               1.517               93.57

Ott             .7661     .7938     .7398      .5066               1.460               93.45

Stargell        .7357     .7643     .7093      .4864               1.458               93.28

McGwire         .7978     .8004     .7953      .5489               1.448               98.37

EMathews        .6989     .6634     .7321      .5060               1.446               92.88

Simmons         .8033     .8560     .7548      .5255               1.436               93.70

Schmidt         .7198     .7419     .6995      .4888               1.431               93.61

FRobinson       .7607     .8248     .7039      .4928               1.428               94.19

MRamirez        .8511     .8569     .8455      .5955               1.419               99.26

Greenberg       .8813     1.028     .7443      .5272               1.411               93.46

McCovey         .7048     .7221     .6890      .4915               1.401               93.27

VGuerrero       .8097     .8392     .7795      .5566               1.400               97.12

Goslin          .7304     .7008     .7580      .5417               1.399               93.88

JGonzalez       .7956     .8090     .7833      .5621               1.393               99.88

Snider          .7661     .8167     .7168      .5151               1.391               92.88

ABelle          .7996     .8302     .7710      .5582               1.381               99.91

Medwick         .7459     .8175     .6812      .4935               1.380               93.41

Colavito        .6656     .6595     .6710      .4874               1.376               93.28

HWilson         .7859     .8365     .7363      .5358               1.374               93.58

FHoward         .6862     .7052     .6679      .4865               1.372               93.25

Bagwell         .7683     .8040     .7345      .5404               1.359               94.13

RJackson        .6640     .6459     .6814      .5021               1.357               98.00

Kiner           .7597     .8333     .6888      .5096               1.351               93.10

ARodriguez      .7966     .8287     .7660      .5685               1.347               99.90

Wheat ('14-'27) .6795     .7088     .6511      .4838               1.345               94.07

Maris           .6432     .6341     .6514      .4848               1.343               93.25

Dawson          .6692     .6686     .6697      .5011               1.336               94.33

EMartinez       .7486     .7500     .7474      .5593               1.336               99.88

Clemente        .6960     .7279     .6664      .4999               1.333               92.88

McGriff         .7113     .7058     .7165      .5428               1.320               97.00

Winfield        .6614     .6395     .6820      .5172               1.318               97.72

Cash            .6702     .7115     .6308      .4796               1.315               94.00

Delgado         .7580     .7681     .7482      .5697               1.313               98.17

Gwynn           .6928     .7092     .6773      .5179               1.307               93.85

Thome           .7658     .8001     .7318      .5598               1.307               98.90

Bench           .6495     .6672     .6322      .4844               1.305               93.47 - C

CJones          .7598     .8130     .7091      .5443               1.302               94.21

Sosa            .7344     .7670     .7031      .5417               1.297               95.77

BiWilliams      .6927     .7519     .6354      .4912               1.293               93.66

Sheffield       .7256     .7485     .7038      .5444               1.292               96.54

KWilliams       .7791     .9070     .6571      .5086               1.291               94.00

Berra           .6740     .7071     .6434      .4985               1.290               93.57 - C

FThomas         .7939     .8621     .7270      .5661               1.284               99.89

Edmonds         .7364     .7514     .7215      .5625               1.282               96.52

LWalker         .8224     .9767     .6849      .5346               1.281               94.11

Klein           .7986     .9553     .6528      .5097               1.280               93.35

EMurray         .6678     .6601     .6751      .5294               1.275               98.42

Brett           .7010     .7431     .6614      .5196               1.272               100.0

Canseco         .7009     .6962     .7052      .5543               1.272               99.94

Kingman         .6254     .6264     .6244      .4960               1.258               95.00

EDavis          .6597     .6593     .6600      .5245               1.258               95.11

Hodges          .6697     .6992     .6421      .5128               1.252               93.00

Sisler          .7096     .7848     .6381      .5104               1.250               94.03

Griffey Jr      .7508     .8136     .6941      .5552               1.250               97.70

Averill         .7821     .8950     .6744      .5396               1.249               93.61

Garvey          .6319     .6528     .6118      .4911               1.245               93.52

DParker         .6628     .7125     .6183      .4968               1.244               95.00

Banks           .6882     .7566     .6226      .5056               1.231               92.89

KBoyer          .6481     .6835     .6136      .5010               1.224               92.86

Rice            .7152     .8022     .6349      .5201               1.220               100.0

Buhner          .6614     .6466     .6762      .5565               1.215               99.93

JLopez          .6888     .7117     .6673      .5504               1.212               95.33 - C

Helton          .7885     .9273     .6573      .5442               1.207               94.23

Tenace          .5651     .5447     .5839      .4858               1.201               95.20 - C

DMurphy         .6382     .6938     .5864      .4925               1.190               93.72

GCarter         .5948     .6107     .5799      .4891               1.185               93.73 - C

Fisk            .6248     .6462     .6042      .5121               1.179               99.12 - C

Ripken Jr       .6176     .5934     .6406      .5478               1.169               99.95

Yastrzemski     .6463     .7249     .5734      .4906               1.168               96.34

Larkin          .6301     .6481     .6121      .5283               1.158               93.94

Campanella      .6902     .7992     .5973      .5174               1.154               93.10 - C

Caminiti        .6135     .6198     .6073      .5269               1.152               94.13

Rose            .5871     .6181     .5581      .4859               1.148               93.33

Greenwell       .6642     .7121     .6189      .5417               1.142               100.0

Sandberg        .6312     .7017     .5635      .5016               1.123               93.75

JCarter         .6268     .6472     .6067      .5406               1.122               99.37

Santo           .6417     .7422     .5461      .4903               1.113               93.33

IRodriguez      .6596     .6961     .6250      .5628               1.110               99.23 - C

Boggs           .6586     .7593     .5654      .5465               1.034               99.94

Of the 94 players I've ran in rrSLGeff....Rice is 84th. Of course there are many more players to run which will impact that number.

So here's some perspective.

Here are the top 16 guys, when subtracting home from road. How much they benefited. Anyone see a pattern here. Were these guys just talented hitters able to take advantage...or were they handed an advantage and it's up to us, to put things into perspective?

LWalker  .2918
Helton   .2700
Foxx     .2019
Campy    .2019
Santo    .1961
Boggs    .1939
Rice     .1673
Yaz      .1515
Sisler   .1467
Kiner    .1445
Klein    .1431
Griffey  .1389
Sandberg .1382
FThomas  .1351
Averill  .1348
Banks    .1340

[drstrangelove]

I don't see the comparison.
We're looking at what Cobb and Ruth played like under the conditions of MLB at that the time, compared to what Gibson played like under the conditions of the league he played in.

Tbh, that's what some people are looking at exclusively, so it's not "we."

Cobb and Ruth played in leagues where 10 of the best 20 baseball players in the America were excluded. That makes all their rate stats (OPS+, wRC+, WAR, WAA, etc.) a guess work as to what they would be in an integrated league. Their overall counting stats would have been depressed in some fashion as well with better pitchers.


So some of us are asking and answering a questions like:
1) how good is a hitter who was widely regarded as the best hitter in a league that had 10 of the best 20 players in baseball?
2) how does that compare to MLB where they also only had 10 of best 20 players in baseball?

While others are asking and answering questions like:
1) how reliable are stats from the NeL?
2) how reliable are judgments of top players and managers in MLB of players in the NeL?


An attack on reliability and documentation is an interesting approach. It ignores completely the question of who's best by presuming that without a document produced to MLB standards no one can be great, therefore they aren't. Babe Ruth did not become a great player once he played in MLB. He was already a great player. Documentation isn't what made him great. Playing in a MLB ball park facing white pitchers isn't what made him great. It's like saying that without an SAT score or an IQ test we don't know how smart Einstein was. My guess is about 6 billion people would not just disagree but would bust a stitch over that opinion.

It's obvious that people are talking past each other, so while it's humorous, it's also counter productive.

We know how good Black players were in the 1940's. We have them entering baseball and dominating. It's obvious preferable to some to dismiss that and discuss the "reliability of NeL game documentation"------as if-----game documentation is what makes a player great.


Bottom line is this:
1) Black players were great players in the 30's and 40's (and before.)
2) Gibson was considered hands down the best hitter
3) Gibson did that for a long time.

The argument goes back again to aliens. Why was the best hitter in the 30's and 40's NeL not as good as MLB hitters, when the same NeL players dominated baseball in 1947-2012? Aliens. There just needs to be another answer. Using "documentation" or saying opinions about Black players are "worthless" is begging the question: Why? Aliens seems to be the answer.



And I found it really humorous when someone posted that "People watching him play and giving their opinion means next to nothing..." and there was no peep at all. All the quotes and opinions about Ruth, Wagner, Mathewson, Johnson, Cobb, Speaker are worthless. No argument at all with that.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.