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Mike Piazza vs Josh Gibson

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  • Originally posted by Herr28 View Post
    Reading some of the posts in this thread reminds me of a game my wife and a friend of ours used to play. The game was called "costume or outfit." They would say that out loud when they saw some woman walk by wearing some kind of crazy stuff, and the key was to figure out if she wore it for real as an everyday outfit, or if it was being worn to a costume party. Here, I read some posts and play a game I guess I can call "ignorant or insulting?" I wonder if some people are just ignorant about the Negro Leagues and the players, or if they are purposefully trying to be insulting -- or even a little of both it seems. It is a pretty tough game sometimes.
    Whats your point Herr, where do you come up with ignorant or insulting.
    Who are you speaking of, those that make the point that the level of play and more important the scant stants play a part, are they the ignorant or insulting.
    Certainly you can't be speaking of the others, who see it a different way, who claim there is enough, word of mouth that praised the black players and the stats are sufficiant.
    Kind of shocked at your words, ignorant about Negro Leagues and players or insulting, or both.
    Is that the case if some see it different, is it possible they do know about black baseball but have a different take on where the great blacks stand in the ranking.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Yankillaz View Post
      NOW, if someone can dig up information on all these leagues and put it under the same consideration on MLB, whether is higher or lower, then we can have some way to make comparisons. There are tons of players that had MLB talent, but we're arguing here is who's best. On actual facts and stats, not commentaries from knowledgeable people.
      Commentaries from knowledgeable people is the best we will ever have in many cases, even when supplemented with some numbers.

      I am all for rigorous statistical analysis, where it can be done. But even comparisons across dramatically different eras of MLB--with complete numbers available--necessarily incorporate assumptions and guesswork; they are not truly rigorous.

      Comparisons between players from different contexts are always qualitative, not quantitative, and subjective. But objective mathematical rigor is not the only meaningful way to make comparisons.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
        Whats your point Herr, where do you come up with ignorant or insulting.
        Who are you speaking of, those that make the point that the level of play and more important the scant stants play a part, are they the ignorant or insulting.
        Certainly you can't be speaking of the others, who see it a different way, who claim there is enough, word of mouth that praised the black players and the stats are sufficiant.
        Kind of shocked at your words, ignorant about Negro Leagues and players or insulting, or both.
        Is that the case if some see it different, is it possible they do know about black baseball but have a different take on where the great blacks stand in the ranking.
        No, don't be ridiculous. I don't care if other people have a different opinion, that is what these discussions are all about. We are supposed to talk about our different opinions here. That has nothing to do with it, so do not try and spin my post that way.

        It is the insulting tone about Negro League players that comes through some of these posts. Again, it could be unintentional, because the posters are ignorant about the players, the history, etc. Ignorant does not equal unintelligent, stupid, or anything negative. We are all ignorant about some (or many) things, because nobody knows everything. Do not try and twist that into an attack on people with a different opinion. That is a tired old tactic around these boards as well.
        "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

        Comment


        • I agree Pere. But those commentaries are insufficient to what we try to accomplish here. I saw an article about Ryne Sandberg that Dick Schoenfield wrote in his blog two days ago. He claims that Sandberg was lacking in defense since his team decreased the DP ratio to league norms. Interesting that in 1983 the Cubs were the best at turning the DP, but never in peak Sandberg form. He mentioned that Christina Kahrl argues that Sandberg is overrated in defense. That's an argument. But knowledgeable people argue that Sandberg was the best defensive secondbaseman this side of Mazeroski. Now with WAR we have Grich better than him and Whitaker at least his equal. But still, he's much better than the norm. But this stat tell us something that wasn't considered back in the day. So knowledgeable people's comments while valuable, need from data to be worth something. As does data needs the account of these people.
          "I am not too serious about anything. I believe you have to enjoy yourself to get the most out of your ability."-
          George Brett

          Comment


          • It is difficult to imagine a world in the 1930's/1940's where (most) White people didn't treat Black people as subhumans, so it is even more difficult to imagine how Gibson would have done in an MLB career

            If we "time machine" an 18 year old Josh Gibson into the 2015 MLB draft, I don't think a team nowadays would let him be a catcher. His bat would be too valuable. They'd play him at 1B/LF/DH and, provided he could stay away from the drug/alcohol problems that plagued him in the 30's, he'd (in my opinion) probably hit 600-700 HR's over the course of his career and would be an All-Time great. But he wouldn't be a catcher.

            Of course the other issue is that with modern training Gibson might end up as a 6-2 250 pound middle linebacker in the NFL in modern day America and skip Baseball altogether. He had such an easy going happy go lucky personality, though, that he might not be well suited for Football.

            Anyways, just my best guess using a (somewhat) logical imagination

            Comment


            • Originally posted by 3and2Fastball View Post
              ...provided he could stay away from the drug/alcohol problems that plagued him in the 30's...
              Perhaps he could have had his brain tumor diagnosed much earlier, and avoided the impulse to self-medicate.

              Comment


              • So many what ifs....I agree with both.
                "I am not too serious about anything. I believe you have to enjoy yourself to get the most out of your ability."-
                George Brett

                Comment


                • From fangraphs...

                  Mike Piazza’s Greatness

                  Baseball Think Factory Hall of Merit: Josh Gibson
                  Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                  Comment


                  • I don't feel that it is insulting to place Gibson on par offensively with the other great catchers of his era. He could have been another Cochrane or Dickey or Hartnett or even another Campy if given a chance. These guys are legends and HOFers and among the best ever at the position. I just feel it is a bit of a stretch to assume he would have hit like Piazza, and more than a bit of a stretch to assume he would have hit like Foxx.

                    Comment


                    • chicagowhitesox1173 brought up my point earlier. If you want to know how some of the Negro Leaguers might have fared against the major leagues, look at the first crop we got: Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Ernie Banks, Jackie Robinson, Roy Campanella.

                      Some of THE best players of all time right out of the gate. This implies to me that the talent level was not any lower in the Negro Leagues, but most likely equal to, if not better than the major leagues. Now the quality of play, equipment, stat-keeping etc are not up to the major league standard, but talent?...there is no doubt in my mind that those dudes could play!

                      The white leagues had more polish top to bottom, but the Negro Leagues had just as much talent. Gibson all day

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Herr28 View Post
                        No, don't be ridiculous. I don't care if other people have a different opinion, that is what these discussions are all about. We are supposed to talk about our different opinions here. That has nothing to do with it, so do not try and spin my post that way.

                        It is the insulting tone about Negro League players that comes through some of these posts. Again, it could be unintentional, because the posters are ignorant about the players, the history, etc. Ignorant does not equal unintelligent, stupid, or anything negative. We are all ignorant about some (or many) things, because nobody knows everything. Do not try and twist that into an attack on people with a different opinion. That is a tired old tactic around these boards as well.
                        Herr. I didn't put any spin on your post, go back and look at what you said.
                        You used the words ignorant and trying to be insulting.
                        I'm trying to twist, are you kidding, your digging a deeper hole now, shooting blanks
                        Your words in your previous post tell the story, no twisting on this end.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
                          Herr. I didn't put any spin on your post, go back and look at what you said.
                          You used the words ignorant and trying to be insulting.
                          I'm trying to twist, are you kidding, your digging a deeper hole now, shooting blanks
                          Your words in your previous post tell the story, no twisting on this end.
                          Shooting blanks. C'mon, Joe, we don't shoot blanks in Texas. Digging what hole? Where exactly am I supposed to be digging to? Anywhere in particular? You tried to make it seem that I was calling those with a different opinion from mine ignorant. That was in your post, not mine. I was referring to the comments about the Negro Leagues and the players that starred there. Some of the comments have been either driven by a lack of knowledge of those men/leagues (ignorance -- again, not a negative thing), or they are being made to be insulting to Negro League players and/or their talent level. That is what I was referring to. It was right there, before you asked if I was trying to call people ignorant for having a different opinion.

                          I don't need my E-tool or my gun. No digging or shooting involved. I was just wondering where some of these anti-Negro League comments were coming from. I am not the only one who has pointed it out, in this thread or countless others. It has nothing to do with the opinions of those who think one of these guys is a better hitter than the other.
                          "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Herr28 View Post
                            Shooting blanks. C'mon, Joe, we don't shoot blanks in Texas. Digging what hole? Where exactly am I supposed to be digging to? Anywhere in particular? You tried to make it seem that I was calling those with a different opinion from mine ignorant. That was in your post, not mine. I was referring to the comments about the Negro Leagues and the players that starred there. Some of the comments have been either driven by a lack of knowledge of those men/leagues (ignorance -- again, not a negative thing), or they are being made to be insulting to Negro League players and/or their talent level. That is what I was referring to. It was right there, before you asked if I was trying to call people ignorant for having a different opinion.

                            I don't need my E-tool or my gun. No digging or shooting involved. I was just wondering where some of these anti-Negro League comments were coming from. I am not the only one who has pointed it out, in this thread or countless others. It has nothing to do with the opinions of those who think one of these guys is a better hitter than the other.
                            Your doing it again, where do you get off calling some anti negro, toss that in with ignorant and insulting..
                            So in other words, if some don't raise some black players to the level some others do, thats anti negro.
                            Keep digging deeper, your words, insulting, ignorant, anti negro, shades of the big "R"word, because of a different opinion.

                            Your burying yourself, you don't need my help.
                            You can have the last word, not going to bore other members with a one on one.I have nothing else to say.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
                              So all 800 homers were hit in league games?
                              I know you're not this stupid because I know I've told you at least twice that the 800 number is including exhibition and barnstorming games. The numbers on seamheads and BB-Ref. being used don't include those games and thus his official NeL stats don't have him down for 800 HR's. It's around 200, I think, but I'm not sure and don't feel like looking it up.

                              I will bomb the Babe Ruth thread with ignorant, stereotypical garbage about what fat, do-nothing, ass he was outside of hitting home runs if you want? Even though I know better. Just like you know better about the 800 HR number. If you want to keep playing this stupid game. Stop feigning stupid.
                              "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
                                Your doing it again, where do you get off calling some anti negro, toss that in with ignorant and insulting..
                                So in other words, if some don't raise some black players to the level some others do, thats anti negro.
                                Keep digging deeper, your words, insulting, ignorant, anti negro, shades of the big "R"word, because of a different opinion.

                                Your burying yourself, you don't need my help.
                                You can have the last word, not going to bore other members with a one on one.I have nothing else to say.
                                You are way off base, and I really don't appreciate your tone. Read that highlighted part. I said anti-Negro Legue, as in comments that were putting down the Negro Leagues. I never said anyone was putting down black people, nor do I ever use the term you used above without the following word "league(s)."

                                What is your problem? Why are you trying to make this personal? I have already said in a previous post that I didn't see anybody here calling anyone else racist because of their stand on Piazza over Gibson -- or in the fact that they don't rank NeL players with MLB players. I said that, Joe, if you would settle down and stop trying to put words into my mouth (or in my posts) that are not there, you might have a little more grasp on what I am actually saying.

                                Your last two posts have really been over the line. Do not accuse me of things I have not done. I pointed out some unnecessary comments about the Negro Leagues and the quality of the players. They are the same types of comments that have been addressed in many other threads on this topic. That is all. I am not the only person here who has noticed, or pointed out those comments. If you can't understand that, I don't know what to tell you. I have not made any comments directly to or about anyone here regarding racism. Therefore, you can stop that crap right now. Immediately, if not sooner.

                                I don't need a last word with you. Apparently you don't even understand the previous words. You are the one making this personal, and I am finished with your nonsense.
                                "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

                                Comment

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