Mike Piazza vs Josh Gibson

[Yankillaz]

I know you're not this stupid because I know I've told you at least twice that the 800 number is including exhibition and barnstorming games. The numbers on seamheads and BB-Ref. being used don't include those games and thus his official NeL stats don't have him down for 800 HR's. It's around 200, I think, but I'm not sure and don't feel like looking it up.

I will bomb the Babe Ruth thread with ignorant, stereotypical garbage about what fat, do-nothing, ass he was outside of hitting home runs if you want? Even though I know better. Just like you know better about the 800 HR number. If you want to keep playing this stupid game. Stop feigning stupid.

I hit a home run playing once. FWIW

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Imagine, if possible, the love those black players had for the game of baseball.
Little in the way of being paid enough to make a living for many of them
Poor training conditions, poor travel conditions, turned away from restaurants and hotels.
Knowing they were the equal of some of the best white MLB players, but not being able to show how they could play to the general public.
Yet, they got out there, play the game, get on the road, some where else to play.

[bluesky5]

Imagine, if possible, the love those black players had for the game of baseball.
Little in the way of being paid enough to make a living for many of them
Poor training conditions, poor travel conditions, turned away from restaurants and hotels.
Knowing they were the equal of some of the best white MLB players, but not being able to show how they could play to the general public.
Yet, they got out there, play the game, get on the road, some where else to play.

I'm sure it was better than any alternative employment much like with white players.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

I'm sure it was better than any alternative employment much like with white players.

I'm sure it was all I'm saying is it's obvoius the love they had for the game.

[1905 Giants]

I have nothing against the Negro Leagues. This may sound silly, but they kind of remind me of the 19th century guys. In both cases the game was different, and trying to transport them to the modern era is tricky, if not downright impossible.

I don't doubt that Josh Gibson would be a spectacular player and if he was in the draft teams would salivate to have him.

[JR Hart]

Cobb and Ruth played in leagues where 10 of the best 20 baseball players in the America were excluded.

There is simply no way that you know this. Black population was far from 50%, back then. There would have to be 4 or 5 good black players for every good white player, in America. That's hardly likely. You are masking a blind assertion.

And I found it really humorous when someone posted that "People watching him play and giving their opinion means next to nothing..." and there was no peep at all. All the quotes and opinions about Ruth, Wagner, Mathewson, Johnson, Cobb, Speaker are worthless. No argument at all with that.

A valid point....but we HAVE solid documentation on Ruth, Wagner, ect.

[bluesky5]

There is simply no way that you know this. Black population was far from 50%, back then. There would have to be 4 or 5 good black players for every good white player, in America. That's hardly likely. You are masking a blind assertion.




A valid point....but we HAVE solid documentation on Ruth, Wagner, ect.

Just how many black people do you think are in America right now?

[Honus Wagner Rules]

In Baseball's Ultimate Power: Ranking the All-Time Greatest Distance Home Run Hitters , Bill Jenkinson wrote this about Mike Piazza.

HR power 1.jpg
HR power 2.jpg
HR power 3.jpg

[Bucketfoot]

My fave double standard is: Black player X is great because of his natural gifts. White player Y is smart and learned from coach Z how to win. You see that junk alll the time. See if you can't picture a few examples.

Being married to a black woman I can assure you this sort of thing isn't unnoticed. Try twice as hard get half as far. Can't fathom what it would have like for the Biz Mackeys of that era.

Anyone equating Gibson or Paige or Suttles with say Ron Kittle should know better. Al Simmons obviously is a fave, but I don't for a minute think Gibson wasn't his equal.

[drstrangelove]

Give the guy a little more credit than that. His 1983 season was just about on par with his 1977-1979 seasons. In 1986 he was a top MVP candidate.

I posted the stats...so why don't you post your own or at least explain what is wrong with the stats I posted.

Oh wait, we don't actually use stats to compare players. Which is ironic because the whole thrust of some of the posts in the thread is that we NEED stats for NeL players but don't have them. Why do we need stats when we don't use them?

I think his top five seasons beat Schmidt's top five.

Here I

I'll post the top seasons and let's seen if Rice beats Schmidt.

Rbat

1) Rice 49
2) Schmidt 47
2) Rice 47
4) Schmidt 46
5) Schmidt 44
6) Schmidt 41
6) Schmidt 41
6) Schmidt 41
6) Rice 41
10) Schmidt 40
11) Schmidt 40
12) Schmidt 38
13) Schmidt 36
14) Schmidt 34

I count Rice 3 times and Schmidt 11 times.

OPS+

1) Schmidt 198
2) Schmidt 171
3) Schmidt 161
4) Schmidt 158
5) Rice 157
6) Schmidt 156
7) Schmidt 154
7) Schmidt 154
7) Rice 154
10) Schmidt 153
11) Schmidt 151
12) Schmidt 151
13) Schmidt 149

I count rice 2 times and Schmidt 11 times.


IBB


1) Schmidt 25
2) Schmidt 18
3) Schmidt 17
4) Schmidt 17
5) Schmidt 15
6) Schmidt 14
7) Schmidt 14
8) Schmidt 12
9) Schmidt 12
10) Schmidt 10
11) Schmidt 10
12) Schmidt 10
13) Rice 10
14) Rice 10

I count rice 2 times and Schmidt 12 times.

Gee willikers! I think Schmidt could drop his best 7 seasons and STILL beat Rice's best 5.

[Los Bravos]

My fave double standard is: Black player X is great because of his natural gifts. White player Y is smart and learned from coach Z how to win. You see that junk alll the time. See if you can't picture a few examples.

Billy Packer made a long, disgraceful career peddling that same garbage.

[willshad]

I posted the stats...so why don't you post your own or at least explain what is wrong with the stats I posted.

Oh wait, we don't actually use stats to compare players. Which is ironic because the whole thrust of some of the posts in the thread is that we NEED stats for NeL players but don't have them. Why do we need stats when we don't use them?




Here I

I'll post the top seasons and let's seen if Rice beats Schmidt.

Rbat

1) Rice 49
2) Schmidt 47
2) Rice 47
4) Schmidt 46
5) Schmidt 44
6) Schmidt 41
6) Schmidt 41
6) Schmidt 41
6) Rice 41
10) Schmidt 40
11) Schmidt 40
12) Schmidt 38
13) Schmidt 36
14) Schmidt 34

I count Rice 3 times and Schmidt 11 times.

OPS+

1) Schmidt 198
2) Schmidt 171
3) Schmidt 161
4) Schmidt 158
5) Rice 157
6) Schmidt 156
7) Schmidt 154
7) Schmidt 154
7) Rice 154
10) Schmidt 153
11) Schmidt 151
12) Schmidt 151
13) Schmidt 149

I count rice 2 times and Schmidt 11 times.


IBB


1) Schmidt 25
2) Schmidt 18
3) Schmidt 17
4) Schmidt 17
5) Schmidt 15
6) Schmidt 14
7) Schmidt 14
8) Schmidt 12
9) Schmidt 12
10) Schmidt 10
11) Schmidt 10
12) Schmidt 10
13) Rice 10
14) Rice 10

I count rice 2 times and Schmidt 12 times.

Gee willikers! I think Schmidt could drop his best 7 seasons and STILL beat Rice's best 5.

What numbers would you like me to post? In 1983 Rice had a line of 39 HR 126 RBI .305 .361 .550. He led the league in HR RBI and total bases, and finished fourth in the MVP voting. He had 5.6 WAR, compared to 5.2 in 1977 and 6.3 in 1979. In 1986 he had a line on 20 110 .324 with 200 hits and a third place MVP finish. Again, he had 5.6 WAR. These years were not as good as his 1978 season, but they were MVP caliber seasons nonetheless. To call Rice a guy who had only three good seasons is inaccurate.

[Herr28]

What numbers would you like me to post? In 1983 Rice had a line of 39 HR 126 RBI .305 .361 .550. He led the league in HR RBI and total bases, and finished fourth in the MVP voting. He had 5.6 WAR, compared to 5.2 in 1977 and 6.3 in 1979. In 1986 he had a line on 20 100 .324 with 200 hits and a third place MVP finish. Again, he had 5.6 WAR. These years were not as good as his 1978 season, but they were MVP caliber seasons nonetheless. To call Rice a guy who had only three good seasons is inaccurate.

I was a big Jim Rice fan as a kid, and I really remember that 1986 season. It really sucks that he hit such a sudden and steep decline after that. It looked like he was still on top of the AL with the best hitters, but he exited that group rather quickly.

I also remember hearing some TV guys talking about what a great OF the Sox had in the mid-1980s: Jim Rice, Tony Armas, and Dwight Evans. All of them had been a recent AL HR champ, and Dewey was a great RFer too. Clearly, whoever was talking about that wasn't looking at Tony's terrible OBP, or the fact that he and Jim hit into a ton of DPs. But, I loved that outfield when I was a kid back then. All three of those guys could really put a charge into the ball, that's for sure.

[drstrangelove]

There is simply no way that you know this. Black population was far from 50%, back then. There would have to be 4 or 5 good black players for every good white player, in America. That's hardly likely. You are masking a blind assertion.

1) Position players inducted into the Hall of Fame that played in 1947 season or later -53
Position players inducted into the Hall of Fame that played in 1947 season or later that were not white-29
% of non white players = 29/53= 55%


2) MVP awards won by both leagues since 1947 - 137
MVP awards won by both leagues since 1947 won by non-white players-57
% of non white players = 57/137= 42%


3) spanning years played for 1947-2014, career OPS+ of 130 or higher for any player, 3000 or more PA - 95
% of non white players = 41/95= 43%


4) Top 20 Career HR hitters since 1947 - 20
% of non white players = 12/20 = 60%


5) Top 20 Career RBIs since 1947 - 20
% of non white players = 15/20 = 75%


6) Top 20 Career Batting Averages since 1947 - 20
% of non white players = 10/20 = 50%


7) Top 20 Career Hits since 1947 - 20
% of non white players = 10/20 = 50%


8) Top 10 WAR for Position players by year for 1947-2013

  	    Nonwhite	Total	Non white%
2000-13	     56	         140	  40.0%
1990-99	     50	         100	  50.0%
1980-89	     43	         100	  43.0%
1970-79	     52	         102	  51.0%
1960-69	     57	         100	  57.0%
1954-59	     23	          60	  38.3%
	    281	         602	  46.7%

% of non white players is 281/602 =47%

9) Top 20 Career Games Played since 1947 - 20
% of non white players = 9/20 = 45%


10) Top 20 Career Total Bases since 1947 - 20
% of non white players = 11/20 = 55%


11) Top 20 Runs Scored since 1947 - 20
% of non white players = 10/20 = 50%


12) MVP awards World Series since 1947 - 60
% of non white players = 20/60 = 33%


13) MVP awards All Star Game since 1947 - 54
% of non white players = 30/54 = 56%


14) MVP awards NL/ALCS since 1947 - 73
% of non white players = 25/73 = 34%


15) Top 20 Career ISO averages since 1947 - 20
% of non white players = 10/20 = 50%




Let's see:

1) 55%
2) 42%
3) 43%
4) 60%
5) 75%
6) 50%
7) 50%
8) 47%
9) 45%
10) 55%
11) 50%
12) 33%
13) 56%
14) 34%
15) 50%

We could do this all day. These 15 metrics average 50%. White players were not 100% of the best players in 1930-1946, or even 1901-1946. They weren't 65%. They have at best been 50% the entire time. We can all debate this, but we already have facts (data posted above for example) and a butt load of corroborating opinions from people like Wagner, Ruth, Durocher, Williams, DiMaggio, Paige, Hack Wilson, Dean, Feller, Walter Johnson, et al.

Yea. I think we know 50% is correct.

Of course, one could argue that Black players couldn't have done this before 1947. After all, it's a fact that, ummm, hmmm, urggggh----aliens.

[willshad]

My fave double standard is: Black player X is great because of his natural gifts. White player Y is smart and learned from coach Z how to win. You see that junk alll the time. See if you can't picture a few examples.

Being married to a black woman I can assure you this sort of thing isn't unnoticed. Try twice as hard get half as far. Can't fathom what it would have like for the Biz Mackeys of that era.

Anyone equating Gibson or Paige or Suttles with say Ron Kittle should know better. Al Simmons obviously is a fave, but I don't for a minute think Gibson wasn't his equal.

My favorite double standard is this: We shouldn't take seriously the stats of the white major leaguers who played in the 1920s and 1930s because there were no black players around...but we darn well better base our rankings of the Negro leaguers on their stats done in a league without any white players, in 30 game seasons , against whatever black guys they could get to play on that particular day.