Mike Piazza vs Josh Gibson

[Honus Wagner Rules]

My favorite double standard is this: We shouldn't take seriously the stats of the white major leaguers who played in the 1920s and 1930s because there were no black players around...but we darn well better base our rankings of the Negro leaguers on their stats done in a league without any white players, in 30 game seasons , against whatever black guys they could get to play on that particular day.

Remember when BBF poster "538280" ranked Oscar Charleston as the #1 player of all time? Of course he also thought Jimmy Wynn was better than Ken Griffey, Jr.

[Bucketfoot]

Oh I take the stats of the Babe Ruth generation very seriously, why would I have Simmons nickname(albeit one he hated). But you(not You, Willshad) Cannot have it both ways--oooh and Awe at Hornsby hitting .424 one year then turn round and treat Mule Suttles like he was Dave Kingman in a black only beer league. That isn't creditable in the least.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

My favorite double standard is this: We shouldn't take seriously the stats of the white major leaguers who played in the 1920s and 1930s because there were no black players around...but we darn well better base our rankings of the Negro leaguers on their stats done in a league without any white players, in 30 game seasons , against whatever black guys they could get to play on that particular day.

I've said the same more than a few times.
Another one, some saying some of the very good white MLb players could not cut it today because the game way back in time was played different and not integrated.
But we have to accept some very good black players, some greats even though we have so little to go on..
I say there had to be some very good and great black players who have to be accepted and could play and star in todays game.
So why do some posters have a different view on some very good and great white MLb players from long ago.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Oh I take the stats of the Babe Ruth generation very seriously, why would I have Simmons nickname(albeit one he hated). But you(not You, Willshad) Cannot have it both ways--oooh and Awe at Hornsby hitting .424 one year then turn round and treat Mule Suttles like he was Dave Kingman in a black only beer league. That isn't creditable in the least.

I don't see many laughing off Suttles, Paige, Gibson or some other great blacks, what are you looking at.

[Stolensingle]

According to HWR's post upthread, Piazza's longest HR ever hit was 504 feet. According to stories posted further upthread, Gibson's longest measured HR (most weren't, of course) was 512 feet.

Mike Piazza played at a time when long HR were routinely measured, so we can say with some assurance that 504 feet was the longest one he ever hit. The only HR Josh Gibson hit that was ever measured was longer than that. As I said upthread, I think we could use analytics to correlate HR distance with HR frequency, and this would further support what little data we have to indicate just how good Gibson was.

A couple of other points relevant to this argument:

1) Do we have any data on the offensive environment of the Negro Leagues? It would be interesting to calculate a rough Rbat or wRAA for Gibson, and such data would bear on the question of the quality of competition. Piazza's raw numbers were inflated somewhat by the era he played in, and it may be that Gibson's were inflated, also. It would be very interesting and germane to this discussion if we just had a rough idea of the runs/PA in the Negro Leagues. I think the first recorded professional game involving African-American players, around 1880, finished with a score of something like 54-43. I trust the Negro League offensive environment in the 1930s and 40s was nothing like that!

2) The proportion of African-Americans in the U.S. in the 30s and early 40s was just under 10%. If you take into account that Latinos were also effectively barred from MLB, i would guess there were 7-8 times as many whites (in the sense of eligible to play in MLB) as blacks in those days. The Negro Leagues, OTOH, were composed of fewer players than MLB, as far as I can tell. During the period Gibson played, there were generally just 5-6 teams in each of the two major leagues (hard to estimate, because teams were constantly going bankrupt or otherwise out of existence and being replaced by others). As a very rough guess--and some historian here can no doubt make this guess a better one--the ratio of the black population to the positions open in the main Negro League teams was one-fifth the corresponding white ratio.

So MLB was more selective, in that players came from a larger pool. But against that, we have to ask how many more employment opportunities did whites have that might have competed with MLB. Other pro sports, to begin with. My understanding is that while there was never a sharp color line in the NFL, very few blacks played pro football until the 50s. Same with the NBA. But AFAIK, there were no equivalents of the Negro Leagues in these sports, so playing in these sports would effectively not have been open to blacks during Gibson's era. If you were a talented black athlete, the Negro Leagues were about the only way you could make a living--with a few exceptions, like boxing, which would be open to very few. That would not be the case for whites--though to be fair, baseball at that time was far more popular and prestigious relative to other sports than it is today, and no doubt, any white kid who thought he had talent for the game would pick that over football or basketball. But non-sports opportunities would be relevant, too.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

1) Position players inducted into the Hall of Fame that played in 1947 season or later -53
Position players inducted into the Hall of Fame that played in 1947 season or later that were not white-29
% of non white players = 29/53= 55%


2) MVP awards won by both leagues since 1947 - 137
MVP awards won by both leagues since 1947 won by non-white players-57
% of non white player MVPs = 57/137= 42%


3) spanning years played for 1947-2014, career OPS+ of 130 or higher for any player, 3000 or more PA - 95
% of non white players with OPS+ of 130 or more = 41/95= 43%


4) Top 20 Career HR hitters since 1947 - 20
% of non white players = 12/20 = 60%


5) Top 20 Career RBIs since 1947 - 20
% of non white players = 15/20 = 75%


6) Top 20 Career Batting Averages since 1947 - 20
% of non white players = 10/20 = 50%


7) Top 20 Career Hits since 1947 - 20
% of non white players = 10/20 = 50%


8) Top 10 WAR for Position players by year for 1947-2013

  	    Nonwhite	Total	Non white%
2000-13	     56	         140	  40.0%
1990-99	     50	         100	  50.0%
1980-89	     43	         100	  43.0%
1970-79	     52	         102	  51.0%
1960-69	     57	         100	  57.0%
1954-59	     23	          60	  38.3%
	    281	         602	  46.7%

Non white players % is 47% of each year's top 10.

Let's see:

1) 55%
2) 42%
3) 43%
4) 60%
5) 75%
6) 50%
7) 50%
8) 47%

Yea. I think we know 50% is correct. Of course, one could argue that Black players couldn't have done this before 1947. After all, it's a fact that, ummm, hmmm, urggggh----aliens.

How many times will you repeat that line.
No one is saying that it could not be that there were very good and great black players before 1947.
Speaking for myself and I would bet most on this board even those that picked Piazza are aware there were always great black players.
That seems to be your line if a poster doesn't rank a black where you believe he belongs.

[drstrangelove]

How many times will you repeat that line.

How many times will you repeat yours?

And my post was an answer to the common fantasy that white players made up the lion's share of talent in 1930-1946. It's a myth although less entertaining that Goldilocks or Little Red Riding Hood. There is nothing that supports that fantasy and my post was made to confirm with actual MLB stats that were obtained in actual MLB parks against actual MLB teams. Black players represented a full 50% of the best baseball players in 1930-1946.

For every Ruth, Gehrig, Greenberg, Foxx, Musial, Williams, DiMaggio, and Hornsby, there was a similar player in the NeL. And Josh Gibson was considered hands down the best of the lot.

No one is saying that it could not be that there were very good and great black players before 1947.

Right. I read that little red herring post about the Japanese women's north Tokyo league that "also might be very good.....but we just don't know." No. There are many posts saying "we don't know", "maybe", "it could be", ""who knows." The answer is that many of us do know. Black players have always made up 50% of the best players.

I'll continue to make the point that we do know because the only answer to my posts has been....aliens. Black players have always been great----but ahem, they weren't great before because of----aliens.

Speaking for myself and I would bet most on this board even those that picked Piazza are aware there were always great black players. That seems to be your line if a poster doesn't rank a black where you believe he belongs.

Yet----here is Josh Gibson, who many considered to be hands down the best hitter ever in the NeL, and he is considered far worse than the 15th best hitter in 1993-2006. If what you said was true, that would be impossible. Piazza wouldn't beat Ruth in a poll, or Williams, Gehrig, Hornsby, Foxx or Musial. He wouldn't come close. So, it's clear that a large number of people dismiss the talent in the NeL off hand.

The opinions of baseball greats are accorded respect almost ONLY when they refer to white players. If Wagner admires Ruth, that's given a gold plaque: if he admires Gibson it's dismissed as worthless drivel. Opinions about Black players are deemed as "worthless, biased, lies or hyperbole" and reports from reporters as those from lying, paid off, shills.

The facts wholly contradict your opinion. NO ONE has challenged the belief that Josh Gibson was the best hitter ever in the NeL. If people believed "there were always great black players" then they would hardly rank the 15th best hitter of 1993-2006 over the best hitter from a league of great players.

I will enjoy posting as long as these myths persist. And I'll need to expose the most dangerous myth that aliens are what made Black players great. The way to thwart that is simple: explain how the best Black hitter from 1930-1946 was not better than the 15th best hitter from 1993-2006, when players from the NeL have always dominated baseball.

Heads up: aliens isn't going to work as answer.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

How many times will you repeat yours?





Right. I read that little red herring post about the Japanese women's north Tokyo league that "also might be very good.....but we just don't know." No. There are many posts saying "we don't know", "maybe", "it could be", ""who knows." The answer is that many of us do know. Black players have always made up 50% of the best players.

I'll continue to make the point that we do know because the only answer to my posts has been....aliens. Black players have always been great----but ahem, they weren't great before because of----aliens.






Yet----here is Josh Gibson, who many considered to be hands down the best hitter ever in the NeL, and he is considered far worse than the 15th best hitter in 1993-2006.

The facts wholly contradict your opinion. NO ONE has challenged the belief that Josh Gibson was perhaps if not the best hitter ever in the NeL. If people believed "there were always great black players" then they would hardly rank the 15th best hitter of 1993-2006 over the best hitter from a league of great players.

I will need to post as long as these myths persist. And I'll need to expose the most dangerous myth that aliens are what made Black players great.

I brought it up because it's not true, even some that rank Gibson or other lower than than some others do, is not the same as saying some how blacks became great in 1947 and could not be great before then.
We know they were great, we know some were better and greater than some white MLB plyers.

See what I mean, your closing line, doing it again. Thats the way you see it, that other can't believe they were always great, only because some rank them different than others.

That myth bug is in your head, I don't see it on the board.
I am not a Piazza fan, I saw what he did.we have stats, we know what he did who he competed with.
He and Gibson were beasts with the bat, maybe Gibson even more so, we need more info.
I doubt it's ever gong to happen, more stats.

[Sabo-metrics]

From my understanding, Piazza also used artificial supplements to increase his ability:

http://www.metstoday.com/8374/12-13-...mits-peds-use/

I'm not sure whether the Piazza votes take this into account, or don't care.

[willshad]

Almost seems to be some kind of reverse discrimination going on. It's not good enough to put the Negro league guys on par with the great white players of the time, they have to be on a higher plane. Gibson was not the black Dickey..he was an inhuman monster who would hit like Ruth from the catcher's spot and hit 500 foot home runs on a daily basis.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

How many times will you repeat yours?





Right. I read that little red herring post about the Japanese women's north Tokyo league that "also might be very good.....but we just don't know." No. There are many posts saying "we don't know", "maybe", "it could be", ""who knows." The answer is that many of us do know. Black players have always made up 50% of the best players.

I'll continue to make the point that we do know because the only answer to my posts has been....aliens. Black players have always been great----but ahem, they weren't great before because of----aliens.






Yet----here is Josh Gibson, who many considered to be hands down the best hitter ever in the NeL, and he is considered far worse than the 15th best hitter in 1993-2006. If what you said was true, that would be impossible. Piazza wouldn't beat Dimaggio in a poll, or Williams, or Gehrig, or Ruth, or Hornsby, or Foxx. He wouldn't come close. So, it's clear that a large number of people dismiss the talent in the NeL off hand.

The opinions of baseball greats are accorded respect almost ONLY when they refer to white players. If Wagner admires Ruth, that's given a gold plaque: if he admires Gibson it's dismissed is worthless drivel. Opinions about Black players are deemed as "worthless, biased, lies or hyperbole" and reports from reporters as those from lying, paid off, shills.

The facts wholly contradict your opinion. NO ONE has challenged the belief that Josh Gibson was perhaps if not the best hitter ever in the NeL. If people believed "there were always great black players" then they would hardly rank the 15th best hitter of 1993-2006 over the best hitter from a league of great players.

I will need to post as long as these myths persist. And I'll need to expose the most dangerous myth that aliens are what made Black players great. The way to thwart that is simple: explain how the best Black hitter from 1930-1946 was not better than the 15th best hitter from 1993-2006, when players from the NeL have always dominated baseball.

Aliens isn't going to work as answer.

Double standard we see on this board.
How many times have we seen two of the greats, always near the top, Cobb and Ruth, dismissed or greatly diminished.
Maybe great in their time but in todays game, more integrated, more relief pitching, they get knocked down a few pegs or more..
Oh, but different for Gibson, if he was supposed to be the greatest back then, that means he would have to be greater than Piazza who is not ranked as near the top today.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

From my understanding, Piazza also used artificial supplements to increase his ability:

http://www.metstoday.com/8374/12-13-...mits-peds-use/

I'm not sure whether the Piazza votes take this into account, or don't care.

What do you have an inside line, you know something no one else knows...........as fact.
Is it possible, sure it is, but where is the proof.
Talk is not cheap, it has no value.

[willshad]

How many times will you repeat yours?





Right. I read that little red herring post about the Japanese women's north Tokyo league that "also might be very good.....but we just don't know." No. There are many posts saying "we don't know", "maybe", "it could be", ""who knows." The answer is that many of us do know. Black players have always made up 50% of the best players.

I'll continue to make the point that we do know because the only answer to my posts has been....aliens. Black players have always been great----but ahem, they weren't great before because of----aliens.






Yet----here is Josh Gibson, who many considered to be hands down the best hitter ever in the NeL, and he is considered far worse than the 15th best hitter in 1993-2006. If what you said was true, that would be impossible. Piazza wouldn't beat Ruth in a poll, or Williams, Gehrig, Hornsby, Foxx or Musial. He wouldn't come close. So, it's clear that a large number of people dismiss the talent in the NeL off hand.

The opinions of baseball greats are accorded respect almost ONLY when they refer to white players. If Wagner admires Ruth, that's given a gold plaque: if he admires Gibson it's dismissed is worthless drivel. Opinions about Black players are deemed as "worthless, biased, lies or hyperbole" and reports from reporters as those from lying, paid off, shills.

The facts wholly contradict your opinion. NO ONE has challenged the belief that Josh Gibson was perhaps if not the best hitter ever in the NeL. If people believed "there were always great black players" then they would hardly rank the 15th best hitter of 1993-2006 over the best hitter from a league of great players.

I will need to post as long as these myths persist. And I'll need to expose the most dangerous myth that aliens are what made Black players great. The way to thwart that is simple: explain how the best Black hitter from 1930-1946 was not better than the 15th best hitter from 1993-2006, when players from the NeL have always dominated baseball.

Aliens isn't going to work as answer.

You keep attempting to write off Piazza as 'the fifteenth best hitter of his era'..but how about we look at him this way: by FAR the best hitter at his position in the history of the game. His 143 lifetime OPS+ is a good 14-15 points ahead of Bench and Cochrane, and his ten season peak produced a road OPS of well above 1.000. How many catchers have come along in MLB over the years, and Piazza trumps them all easily. To hit as well as Piazza did for as long as he did is a monumental achievement. It takes more than stories or a small sample of stats produced in short seasons to make me believe anyone could match it. Again, not saying that it's impossible..just highly, highly unlikely.

It's one thing to be a great hitter, hit long home runs, and put up good numbers in a weak league in 30 game seasons, and have tales spun about you. It's a whole different animal to play catcher in 154 or 162 game seasons at the major league level and produce great numbers year after year for a long period of time.

[drstrangelove]

Almost seems to be some kind of reverse discrimination going on.

I'm feeling sorry for all the white players from 1871-1946 already. Even the ones on teams that refused to integrate all the way until the later 50's. Boooo---hoooo.

It's not good enough to put the Negro league guys on par with the great white players of the time, they have to be on a higher plane. Gibson was not the black Dickey..he was an inhuman monster who would hit like Ruth from the catcher's spot and hit 500 foot home runs on a daily basis.

I have no clue what the difficulty is. Although the "they have to be on a higher plane" statement is pretty amazing. What higher plane is that and who made that statement? You aren't using a straw man are you?

[Herr28]

From my understanding, Piazza also used artificial supplements to increase his ability:

http://www.metstoday.com/8374/12-13-...mits-peds-use/

I'm not sure whether the Piazza votes take this into account, or don't care.

Yes, there are numerous sports sites that have articles about Piazza's admitted use. This came up a couple months ago here, but was blown off because it was legal when he was using. He said he quit when the stuff was added to the banned list around 2004.