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Mike Piazza vs Josh Gibson

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  • Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
    Gets better and better
    Have no fear. Babe is still my #1 fave player. Josh is #2.
    Red, it took me 16 years to get here. Play me, and you'll get the best I got.

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    • Nothing to do with Ruth.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by willshad View Post
        Didn't Bonds also slug over .800 in 2001 as well as 2004?
        I posted that a couple of years ago on this board.
        What ever year it was I recall what took placei think 2002. Was watching that game, may have been late in the season.
        Barry hit a drive, stood there for maybe a few seconds, he thought it was gone, hit the fence or wall, not sure which. Easy double but his watching turned it into a long single
        At that time, I thought nothing of it checking his stats at seasons end, that .799 slugging brought back that long single.
        I took his total bases for the season and did some math. All he needed was one more total base, the double would have done the job. Don't recall the exact figure, for sure .800 slugging, I think maybe .801.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Yankillaz View Post
          Holy cow, never noticed that the first 7 players to debut in the MLB from the NeL were HOFers??? That has to be 100/100. Unless, you're just taking some of the long list. Heck, by what I've been reading african american ballplayers were 17% of the Majors in 1959 fwiw. So that list is taking things to ones advantage. For instance check the best players each team thought they could bring from the NeL, consisting of the fi
          The list wasn't meant as you implied and I not say these were the first 7 players to debut in MLB from the NeL.


          I was listing players in the NeL who were hall of famers. The point was that there were hall of famers in the NeL. The response was to the list of leagues like the Japanese Woman's North Tokyo League or the West Des Moines Fireman's League which were all meant to equate to the NeL.

          The NeL had Hall of Famers, and tbh not just Hall of Famers. Jackie Robinson, Roy Campanella, Willie Mays, Ernie Banks, and Hank Aaron make most people's list of the top 5 of all time at their respective positions.

          My point was: show me a league like the Upper Peninsula Orange and Tomato League of Florida with talent like that and I will give them their due. I won't dispute their credibility because 5 players like that give you credibility in diamond studied platinum bars landing on the White House lawn with a 10,000 ton FTL space ship.

          You don't to see the league documentation of a league like that to know they have butt loads of talent. And when they all tell you the best player just retired, you don't ask for proof. Any more than anyone would ask for or need proof that Einstein was smart.

          Proof is the icing on the cake. Not the cake.
          Last edited by drstrangelove; 02-12-2015, 03:21 PM.
          "It's better to look good, than be good."

          Comment


          • Originally posted by pheasant View Post
            I believe that I have greatly underrated Piazza.

            Here are Piazza's road numbers for his 7 and 10 year peaks:

            1994-2000, 1831 AB, 654 hits, 1167 TB, .357 AVG and .637 SLUG%
            1993-2002, 2630 AB, 895 hits, 1620 TB, .340 AVG and .616 SLUG%

            These numbers are off the charts at face value. The fact that they were put up by a catcher seems nearly impossible.
            This is to be expected, since he played in a) a very strong offensive era in b) two pitcher-friendly parks during this entire period. The basic park factor for the Dodgers averaged about 93 during the time he was there, for the Mets about 96, and for HR it was generally even lower, including for RH batters. So you would expect him to hit better on the road than at home, and given the era, to put up gaudy numbers.

            His wRC+ during this period, in the low to mid 150s, is excellent, but I wouldn’t call it off the charts, except for catchers. Since the beginning of the 20th century, about 30 players have a career value of 150 or greater. No telling how many have had an extended peak that high, but Piazza was not in the top 5 in wRC+ during his peak years, and his career wRC+ of 140 is not in the top 50. Among catchers, Gene Tenace—yes, Gene Tenace—has a career wRC+ as high as Piazza’s, and so does Posey (141), so far.

            Here are some peaks:

            Tenace:
            1973-1982 (26-35): 143 (8th)
            1970-82 (23-35): 141 (10th)

            Piazza:
            1994-2000 (25-31): 156 (7th)
            1993-2002 (24-33): 152 (10th)

            Posey:
            2010-2014 (23-27): 143 (12th)

            So Piazza has the best peak for a catcher, but there have certainly been many other position players with a higher peak, and even among catchers, there are two others, one still to play out, with comparable career values.

            Back to Gibson. It’s a very small sample size, of both players and NeL stats, but certainly provides no evidence that the NeL were inferior to MLB. Every player but Robinson had a better HR rate in MLB, and with Jackie, who played just one year in the NeL. it was close. Doby and Campy had higher OPS in MLB. Irvin’s was lower, but this is to be expected, given he didn’t enter MLB until age 30, past his prime. Robinson had a much higher BA in the NeL, but he was in his prime in that one year, which is being compared to his career numbers in MLB. He hit .342 in his best MLB year.

            Campy IMO remains the best single comparison, because he not only accumulated significant numbers in both leagues, but played in or near prime years in both.

            Code:
            Player	Age^	     AB/HR	     OPS
            		NeL	MLB	NeL	MLB
            Robinson27	32.6	35.6	.387*	.311*
            Doby	23	41.1	21.1	.810	.876
            Irvin	30	28.5	25.2	.924	.858
            Campy	26	33.6	17.4	.827	.860
            ^age entered MLB
            *BA
            Last edited by Stolensingle; 02-12-2015, 06:07 PM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by pheasant View Post
              I believe that I have greatly underrated Piazza.

              Here are Piazza's road numbers for his 7 and 10 year peaks:

              1994-2000, 1831 AB, 654 hits, 1167 TB, .357 AVG and .637 SLUG%
              1993-2002, 2630 AB, 895 hits, 1620 TB, .340 AVG and .616 SLUG%

              These numbers are off the charts at face value. The fact that they were put up by a catcher seems nearly impossible.

              I'm starting to believe that Piazza was perhaps the most talented right-handed hitter of all time. However, catching didn't allow him to put up the numbers to back up my case. But the numbers above are incredible.

              With that being said, I am still undecided between Gibson and Piazza. Josh Gibson was a monster at the dish too. Gibson also was known to extend the hitting zone to drive in more runs. Gibson was also known to be a great contact hitter, despite having the ability to smash a 500 ft home run. My gut is that Gibson hit like Ted Williams, except that he didn't have the plate discipline to match Ballgame's OB%.

              I think these two comp out well. Had Piazza and Gibson both played 1st base, they'd both would probably be in my top 10 hitters list of all time.
              Nice post. I think I can go along with almost all of it, though I would have a hard time rating Piazza over Mays, Aaron, Foxx, Wagner, or particularly Hornsby. Probably pretty close to Thomas, while we're at it.

              I DO, however, put Gibson pretty even with most of them. Just based on speculation, I'd say he was similar but with a touch more power and contact ability.
              Found in a fortune cookie On Thursday, August 18th, 2005: "Hard words break no bones, Kind words butter no parsnips."

              1955 1959 1963 1965 1981 1988 2020

              Comment


              • Gibson reminds me of Foxx. Am I crazy?
                "The first draft of anything is crap." - Ernest Hemingway

                There's no such thing as an ultimate stat.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by 1905 Giants View Post
                  Gibson reminds me of Foxx. Am I crazy?
                  How does he remind you of Foxx?
                  "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
                    How does he remind you of Foxx?
                    In terms of power.
                    "The first draft of anything is crap." - Ernest Hemingway

                    There's no such thing as an ultimate stat.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by 1905 Giants View Post
                      In terms of power.
                      You mean the depth of the HR's or what fields they hit them to or their swing or stance?
                      "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Stolensingle View Post
                        This is to be expected, since he played in a) a very strong offensive era in b) two pitcher-friendly parks during this entire period. The basic park factor for the Dodgers averaged about 93 during the time he was there, for the Mets about 96, and for HR it was generally even lower, including for RH batters. So you would expect him to hit better on the road than at home, and given the era, to put up gaudy numbers.
                        Hitting in various settings for half his games, he hit much better than at home. How does that turn into a ho-hum "you would expect him to hit better?" It's expected to hit better at home actually, so anything swinging the other way, matters.

                        His rrOPS+ of 149 is off the charts. Not just for catchers but for any player. That is compared to the entire league of his time, relative to his era, removing pitchers, and giving him back those horrible home parks.

                        He's just behind Ott and directly behind him are FRobinson, Heilmann, EMartinez, Mathews, Schmidt, McCovey, Terry, Greenberg, Stargell, RJackson, CJones, Teance, LWalker, Goslin.

                        If one chooses to give him even moderate considerations for being a righty (23.1% of all PA against lefties), being a catcher (extreme wear and tear and focus split), relief specialists of his era, and competing against PED users throughout his career, he's right up there near DiMaggio and Mantle.

                        The only players in history with higher road SA are Ruth, Williams, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Bonds*, McGwire*, Manny*

                        No other catcher in history is within 100 points of his .572 road SA.

                        His road relative Slugging Efficiency is tied with Foxx and just behind Mays, Mantle, and Musial. Can't stress it enough. This is a catcher we're talking about.

                        What he did was indeed special. He actually did it. There's no speculation. No using other players' accomplishments to suggest he'd have done this or that.

                        Piazza is a top 15 hitter all-time, closer to #12 when adjustments are made imo. Not crazy, back to the future banana peel in the tank adjustments like some on this site. But well thought out, making sense type of adjustments.
                        Last edited by Sultan_1895-1948; 02-12-2015, 09:26 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by toomanyhatz View Post
                          Nice post. I think I can go along with almost all of it, though I would have a hard time rating Piazza over Mays, Aaron, Foxx, Wagner, or particularly Hornsby. Probably pretty close to Thomas, while we're at it.
                          DiMaggio and Pujols are way up there too, as right-handers go.
                          My top 10 players:

                          1. Babe Ruth
                          2. Barry Bonds
                          3. Ty Cobb
                          4. Ted Williams
                          5. Willie Mays
                          6. Alex Rodriguez
                          7. Hank Aaron
                          8. Honus Wagner
                          9. Lou Gehrig
                          10. Mickey Mantle

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
                            Hitting in various settings for half his games, he hit much better than at home. How does that turn into a ho-hum "you would expect him to hit better?" It's expected to hit better at home actually, so anything swinging the other way, matters.
                            No, it depends on the home park. If your home park is pitcher-friendly, it's expected that you will hit better on the road. Mike Trout had a higher OPS on the road than at home in 2013, though he's about even for three years.

                            Trout's home park factor was 95 last year, about what Piazza's was in New York. Piazza's home park factor was generally even lower, around 93, when he played in LA. For comparison, consider Buster Posey, who plays his home games in the park with the lowest current factor of about the same, 93. Over the past 5 seasons, Posey's OPS at home has been 0.799, on the road 0.917. His road OPS has been higher than his home OPS every single year during his career. His SLG at home during this period has been 0.449, on the road 0.522 (notice he's just 0.050 lower than Piazza, so Piazza is not higher than any other catcher by more than 0.100, though granted Posey is still early in his career).

                            There is nothing at all surprising about this. Park factors are calculated based on what players actually do in those parks, so if someone plays his home games in a park with a relatively low, < 100, factor, it means that on average, a player will hit better in other parks combined than he will in that home park. There may be a slight home edge, maybe a player is a little better at home on average than on the road, but that doesn't overcome a sizable park factor.

                            His rrOPS+ of 149 is off the charts. Not just for catchers but for any player. That is compared to the entire league of his time, relative to his era, removing pitchers, and giving him back those horrible home parks.
                            What, exactly, is rrOPS+? If it's a measure of road OPS relative to home OPS, then again, one would expect someone playing home games in a pitcher-friendly park would rank high in this stat. If that is not exactly it, give me a precise definition, as it's too much time and trouble for me to go searching to find the post where I'm sure you or someone else defined it.

                            No other catcher in history is within 100 points of his .572 road SA.
                            Part of that is because Piazza had more power than most other catchers, but part of it also is that he played in a strong offensive era.

                            His road relative Slugging Efficiency is tied with Foxx and just behind Mays, Mantle, and Musial. Can't stress it enough. This is a catcher we're talking about.
                            Again, I need a precise definition of this before I can say more.

                            Piazza is a top 15 hitter all-time, closer to #12 when adjustments are made imo. Not crazy, back to the future banana peel in the tank adjustments like some on this site. But well thought out, making sense type of adjustments.
                            This I do disagree with. As I posted earlier, Piazza is not even top 50 in wRC+. I don't have access to historical OPS+ data, but I'm quite sure he isn't in top 50 in that, either. He's 43d in raw OPS (> 5000 PA), and since he played in a strong offensive era, he should be lower in OPS+, but probably not much lower, since he also played in pitcher-friendly parks. I also pointed out earlier that even in his peak years, he was not top 5 among his contemporaries in wRC+. Same with OPS, he's 11th in the period 1994-2000, though given that he played in pitcher parks, he would no doubt be somewhat higher in OPS+. He did lead the league twice in that stat.
                            Last edited by Stolensingle; 02-12-2015, 10:54 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
                              DiMaggio and Pujols are way up there too, as right-handers go.
                              Yup....DiMaggio is tops for me.

                              After that, it gets pretty tight very quickly.

                              Actually, let's play a game.

                              Not asking to number in order... that's too much work.

                              Just at first glance and based on opinion, can you put these guys in seven groupings of five?

                              If you choose as a wild-card....replace one of these guys with your own nomination and make note of it.

                              If you want I'll go first, just curious on where you stand on some righties

                              Kiner
                              Clemente
                              Rickey
                              Foxx
                              Thomas
                              FRobinson
                              Aaron
                              Brouthers
                              Mays
                              DAllen
                              Piazza
                              Delahanty
                              Heilmann
                              Hornsby
                              VGuerrero
                              Schmidt
                              Pujols
                              Wagner
                              Lajoie
                              DiMaggio
                              Simmons
                              Manny
                              Killebrew
                              Belle
                              Bagwell
                              Arod
                              FHoward
                              McGwire
                              EMartinez
                              Orr
                              Anson
                              Greenberg
                              Browning
                              MCabrera
                              Sosa
                              Last edited by Sultan_1895-1948; 02-12-2015, 11:05 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Stolensingle View Post
                                No, it depends on the home park. If your home park is pitcher-friendly, it's expected that you will hit better on the road.
                                No. Based on the proven league performance throughout history, it is expected you'll do better at home. When you do the reverse, it means something.


                                What, exactly, is rrOPS+? If it's a measure of road OPS relative to home OPS, then again, one would expect someone playing home games in a pitcher-friendly park would rank high in this stat. If that is not exactly it, give me a precise definition, as it's too much time and trouble for me to go searching to find the post where I'm sure you or someone else defined it.
                                It's in the Progessing Thread. You've posted in it. The chart is in the first post.

                                It looks at a players road SA compared to their specific leagues road SA. Using that we get a relative number. It then does the exact same with OBP to get a relative number.

                                Those numbers are added together, we subtract 1.

                                We then divide the players league specific OPS+ by 100 to remove pitchers from the league, and multiply it by the former number...then multiply by 100.

                                The next step is giving the player home, which is multplying by 3 and then adding raw OPS+. This step does something like take Boggs from a 116.0 to 119.7 because we're giving him back Fenway.

                                Part of that is because Piazza had more power than most other catchers, but part of it also is that he played in a strong offensive era.
                                You know I understand the era.

                                Past eras have had huge fields that aided in high BA and extra bases to go along with pitchers pitching to contact.

                                Piazza faced specialized relief as a righty in horrible home parks, while catching. I'm not sure how you can look at that, and not be impressed. Past catchers dealt with their own issues. One of them being, that the position used to be much more defense oriented. I get that.

                                Again, I need a precise definition of this before I can say more.
                                Gotcha.

                                In the same Progressing Thread that you've responded in...the first post and second chart is Slugging Efficiency. I've calculated 94 players so far. Piazza is 13th all-time.

                                This I do disagree with. As I posted earlier, Piazza is not even top 50 in wRC+. I don't have access to historical OPS+ data, but I'm quite sure he isn't in top 50 in that, either. He's 47th in raw OPS, and since he played in a strong offensive era, he should be lower in OPS+, but probably not much lower, since he also played in pitcher-friendly parks. I also pointed out earlier that even in his peak years, he was not top 5 among his contemporaries in wRC+. Same with OPS, he's 11th in the period 1994-2000, though given that he played in pitcher parks, he would no doubt be somewhat higher in OPS+. He did lead the league twice in that stat.
                                Yeah, I'm not much interested in a stat that doesn't consider how hindered a guy was by his home park. If I was, I might consider Klein in my top 10.

                                You keep mentioning the strong era.

                                1)We're talking about a catcher here. That has to be worth something in your mind.

                                2)We're talking about the most specialized relief in history. The most focused on batter in the lineup.

                                I just think it's funny you keep mentioning that "oh by the way, he played in pitcher parks," as if that's just a side note. No, that's HUGE. That's half his games per season. We're taking care of that problem with rrOPS+. That's how Bill Terry ends up 12 points higher than Larry Walker.

                                Comment

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