Mike Piazza vs Josh Gibson

[Stolensingle]

No. Based on the proven league performance throughout history, it is expected you'll do better at home. When you do the reverse, it means something.

You apparently didn’t read my post, at least not as subsequently modified to provide some evidence. You usually will NOT hit better at home if you play in a very pitcher-friendly park. I don’t know how to make that point any clearer than with Posey’s numbers. To repeat, Posey has slugged 0.073 higher on the road than at home over the past four years. Why? Because his home park is relatively disadvantageous for hitters. And I can assure you, you can look at the home-away numbers for other players who have home pitcher parks, and in most cases, you will see the same thing.

The home team does have a slight advantage over the road team, other things being equal, but that is not the same thing.

It looks at a players road SA compared to their specific leagues road SA. Using that we get a relative number. It then does the exact same with OBP to get a relative number.

Those numbers are added together, we subtract 1.

We then divide the players league specific OPS+ by 100 to remove pitchers from the league, and multiply it by the former number...then multiply by 100.

The next step is giving the player home, which is multplying by 3 and then adding raw OPS+. This step does something like take Boggs from a 116.0 to 119.7 because we're giving him back Fenway.

I don’t follow a lot of this. You divide OPS+ by 100—how does that remove pitchers?—then multiply by the former number—what is the former number?—then multiply by 100—if you are going to divided by 100 then multiply by 100, why don’t those two steps cancel?

What do you multiply by 3?

I will have to get back to you on this when I have more time to figure it out. I think you are determining the ratio of the player's road production to league average, then adding that to home production that is modified in some way to take into account park differences. For now, I'll just make two points:

1) OPS is not as good a measure of performance as RC, because it weights OBP equally with SLG, whereas the former should be weighted about 1.7-1.8 times more;

2) while I think road performance is a pretty good measure of a player, since the different parks tend to average out, if you play in a pitcher friendly park, your road environment, on average, is a little more hitter friendly than it is for a player in the same league playing in a hitter friendly park. Park factors I think are the best way we have yet of correcting for problems like these.

Piazza faced specialized relief as a righty in horrible home parks, while catching. I'm not sure how you can look at that, and not be impressed. Past catchers dealt with their own issues. One of them being, that the position used to be much more defense oriented. I get that.

Yes, but all of his contemporaries also faced the same relief. The whole point of value stats like wRC+ is that they compare a player to his contemporaries. Piazza was so many % better than the players who faced the same relievers he did.

Sure, players in the past might not have faced such tough pitching late in the games. But guess what? Neither did their contemporaries. Which means that their contemporaries also had any advantage of inflated hitting stats resulting from weaker pitching. Any stat that compares a player to league average is going to be affected the same way, regardless of era.

Yeah, I'm not much interested in a stat that doesn't consider how hindered a guy was by his home park. If I was, I might consider Klein in my top 10.

I have pointed out several times that wRC+ does take into account park factors. That is one reason why it’s such a good measure of offensive production.

1)We're talking about a catcher here. That has to be worth something in your mind.

Sure, but now we’re getting into hypotheticals. If he had played 1B his whole career, maybe he would have hit better. Maybe, but we don’t know how much. If someone wants to make an argument for how much, I need to see some data.

2)We're talking about the most specialized relief in history. The most focused on batter in the lineup.

To repeat, this is all accounted for in wRC+. Or in OPS+, for that matter.

I just think it's funny you keep mentioning that "oh by the way, he played in pitcher parks," as if that's just a side note. No, that's HUGE. That's half his games per season. We're taking care of that problem with rrOPS+. That's how Bill Terry ends up 12 points higher than Larry Walker.

I don’t know how you infer I regard that as a side note. On the contrary, that fact is why he hit better on the road. And to emphasize yet again, wRC+ does correct for this.

[drstrangelove]

Player	        Rbat	 PA	Rate
Ruth	      1,335.4	10,622	.1257
Williams      1,069.3	 9,788	.1092
Lou Gehrig	971.4	 9,663	.1005
Rogers Hornsby	861.3 	 9,480	.0909
Dan Brouthers	687.7	 7,676	.0896
Bonds	      1,128.5	12,606	.0895
Mickey Mantle	802.4	 9,907	.0810
Jimmie Foxx	759.2 	 9,676	.0785
S Joe Jackson	439.1	 5,695	.0771
Pete Browning	404.9	 5,315	.0762
Ty Cobb	        995.8	13,084	.0761
Albert Pujols	682.6 	 9,241	.0739
Mark McGwire	545.5	 7,660	.0712
Hank Greenberg	433.5	 6,097	.0711
Stan Musial	885.3	12,717	.0696
Joe DiMaggio	529.4	 7,673	.0690
Frank Thomas	690.6	10,075	.0685
Johnny Mize	504.7 	 7,370	.0685
Tris Speaker	819.3	11,992	.0683
Mel Ott	        775.3	11,348	.0683
Ed Delahanty	570.9 	 8,400	.0680
Manny Ramirez	651.3	 9,774	.0666
Billy Hamilton	501.4 	 7,608	.0659
Roger Connor	582.2	 8,847	.0658
Willie Mays	808.8	12,496	.0647
Miguel Cabrera	494.1	 7,811	.0633
Hank Aaron	875.1	13,941	.0628
Jeff Bagwell	591.0	 9,431	.0627
Frank Robinson	729.7	11,742	.0621
Edgar Martinez	531.5	 8,674	.0613
Harry Heilmann	547.0	 8,964	.0610
Sam Thompson	389.5	 6,525	.0597
Dick Allen	435.3	 7,315	.0595
Jim Thome	587.3	10,313	.0569
Alex Rodriguez	634.3	11,344	.0559
Cap Anson	629.3	11,331	.0555
Nap Lajoie	576.6	10,461	.0551
Honus Wagner	639.2	11,748	.0544
Mike Piazza	417.7	 7,745	.0539
Jesse Burkett	517.6	 9,620	.0538
Lance Berkman	420.4 	 7,814	.0538
Elmer Flick	339.5	 6,414	.0529
Chipper Jones	558.3	10,614	.0526
Mike Schmidt	527.1	10,062	.0524
Larry Walker	419.9	 8,030	.0523
Eddie Collins	627.9	12,044	.0521
Albert Belle	343.1	 6,676	.0514
Gary Sheffield	560.7	10,947	.0512
Willie McCovey	486.9	 9,692	.0502
Eddie Mathews	505.5	10,100	.0500
Jason Giambi	443.8	 8,908	.0498
H Killebrew     486.5	 9,833	.0495
Willie Stargell	433.5	 9,027	.0480
Bill Terry	338.8 	 7,108	.0477
Chuck Klein	340.1	 7,170	.0474

Here is Rbat, PA and Rbat/PA which is called Rate. Rate is the sort field and it demonstrates the rate that players accumulate Rbat per PA. I show Piazza as 39th. Certainly an excellent number for a catcher. But hardly a top 12 hitter. All 3 numbers for Piazza in fact are nearly identical to Lance Berkman, 2 ranks lower.


Lance of course is not in Piazza's category since he's not on anyone's PED lists. Neither are Schmidt, Walkers, Collins, Mathews, McCovey, Killebrew, Stargell or Klein. And it's of course almost starkly obvious that the list is very heavily weighted towards players who began their careers between 1986-2000. Fully 1/3 of the players on this list that played in 1986-2000 have admitted to PED use or tested positive for use.

Bottom line is while Piazza on PEDs certainly exceeds non PED users like Bench, Cochrane, Berra and Campanella, he doesn't look remotely like the best of his era. Bonds, Pujols, Cabrera, Martinez, Thomas, Thome, Bagwell, Ramirez and McGwire simply dwarf him. With ARod, he doesn't rank in the top 10 among his peers. Top 12 since 1871 seems more than a stretch.

For those who like Piazza as a RH hitter.....Pujols, Cabrera, Martinez, Thomas, Bagwell, Ramirez, McGwire and ARod are all RH and ahead of him on this list. Not to mention a slew of others who weren't his peers.


There's a reason Piazza never once led the league in runs scored, triples, homers, runs batted in, batting average, slugging average or total bases----things DiMaggio did multiple times with a horrendous home park. Aaron's another RH hitter who played in a pitcher's park while leading the league multiple times in multiple offensive categories.

[Herr28]

Lance Berkman is/was an outstanding and underrated hitter in his career. Not as much power from the right side, as he had coming at pitchers from the left, but one of the greatest all-time switch-hitters in baseball history.

[willshad]

Player	        Rbat	 PA	Rate
Ruth	      1,335.4	10,622	.1257
Williams      1,069.3	 9,788	.1092
Lou Gehrig	971.4	 9,663	.1005
Rogers Hornsby	861.3 	 9,480	.0909
Dan Brouthers	687.7	 7,676	.0896
Bonds	      1,128.5	12,606	.0895
Mickey Mantle	802.4	 9,907	.0810
Jimmie Foxx	759.2 	 9,676	.0785
S Joe Jackson	439.1	 5,695	.0771
Pete Browning	404.9	 5,315	.0762
Ty Cobb	        995.8	13,084	.0761
Albert Pujols	682.6 	 9,241	.0739
Mark McGwire	545.5	 7,660	.0712
Hank Greenberg	433.5	 6,097	.0711
Stan Musial	885.3	12,717	.0696
Joe DiMaggio	529.4	 7,673	.0690
Frank Thomas	690.6	10,075	.0685
Johnny Mize	504.7 	 7,370	.0685
Tris Speaker	819.3	11,992	.0683
Mel Ott	        775.3	11,348	.0683
Ed Delahanty	570.9 	 8,400	.0680
Manny Ramirez	651.3	 9,774	.0666
Billy Hamilton	501.4 	 7,608	.0659
Roger Connor	582.2	 8,847	.0658
Willie Mays	808.8	12,496	.0647
Miguel Cabrera	494.1	 7,811	.0633
Hank Aaron	875.1	13,941	.0628
Jeff Bagwell	591.0	 9,431	.0627
Frank Robinson	729.7	11,742	.0621
Edgar Martinez	531.5	 8,674	.0613
Harry Heilmann	547.0	 8,964	.0610
Sam Thompson	389.5	 6,525	.0597
Dick Allen	435.3	 7,315	.0595
Jim Thome	587.3	10,313	.0569
Alex Rodriguez	634.3	11,344	.0559
Cap Anson	629.3	11,331	.0555
Nap Lajoie	576.6	10,461	.0551
Honus Wagner	639.2	11,748	.0544
Mike Piazza	417.7	 7,745	.0539
Jesse Burkett	517.6	 9,620	.0538
Lance Berkman	420.4 	 7,814	.0538
Elmer Flick	339.5	 6,414	.0529
Chipper Jones	558.3	10,614	.0526
Mike Schmidt	527.1	10,062	.0524
Larry Walker	419.9	 8,030	.0523
Eddie Collins	627.9	12,044	.0521
Albert Belle	343.1	 6,676	.0514
Gary Sheffield	560.7	10,947	.0512
Willie McCovey	486.9	 9,692	.0502
Eddie Mathews	505.5	10,100	.0500
Jason Giambi	443.8	 8,908	.0498
H Killebrew     486.5	 9,833	.0495
Willie Stargell	433.5	 9,027	.0480
Bill Terry	338.8 	 7,108	.0477
Chuck Klein	340.1	 7,170	.0474

Here is Rbat, PA and Rbat/PA which is called Rate. Rate is the sort field and it demonstrates the rate that players accumulate Rbat per PA. I show Piazza as 39th. Certainly an excellent number for a catcher. But hardly a top 12 hitter. All 3 numbers for Piazza in fact are nearly identical to Lance Berkman, 2 ranks lower.


Lance of course is not in Piazza's category since he's not on anyone's PED lists. Neither are Schmidt, Walkers, Collins, Mathews, McCovey, Killebrew, Stargell or Klein. And it's of course almost starkly obvious that the list is very heavily weighted towards players who began their careers between 1986-2000. Fully 1/3 of the players on this list that played in 1986-2000 have admitted to PED use or tested positive for use.

Bottom line is while Piazza on PEDs certainly exceeds non PED users like Bench, Cochrane, Berra and Campanella, he doesn't look remotely like the best of his era. Bonds, Pujols, Cabrera, Martinez, Thomas, Thome, Bagwell, Ramirez and McGwire simply dwarf him. With ARod, he doesn't rank in the top 10 among his peers. Top 12 since 1871 seems more than a stretch.

For those who like Piazza as a RH hitter.....Pujols, Cabrera, Martinez, Thomas, Bagwell, Ramirez, McGwire and ARod are all RH and ahead of him on this list. Not to mention a slew of others who weren't his peers.


There's a reason Piazza never once led the league in runs scored, triples, homers, runs batted in, batting average, slugging average or total bases----things DiMaggio did multiple times with a horrendous home park. Aaron's another RH hitter who played in a pitcher's park while leading the league multiple times in multiple offensive categories.

The Piazza on PEDs stuff is getting old already. As far as I'm concerned him and Bagwell are nowhere near the category of the Bonds' and Manny's and A-rods. Does rbat take position and home stadium into account? Put him at first base in a good hitting stadium and he would have led in multiple categories each year during his prime.

[Herr28]

The Piazza on PEDs stuff is getting old already. As far as I'm concerned him and Bagwell are nowhere near the category of the Bonds' and Manny's and A-rods. Does rbat take position and home stadium into account? Put him at first base in a good hitting stadium and he would have led in multiple categories each year during his prime.

Do you get tired of hearing about all the guys who admitted to using? Or just Piazza? It is a tiresome era of our national pastime, but it is a fact of that era, too. You can pick and choose who to blame or whatever concerning PEDs, but you can't deny a man's own confession. He admitted to using, it wasn't somebody here in that ridiculous thread started not too long ago.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Do you get tired of hearing about all the guys who admitted to using? Or just Piazza? It is a tiresome era of our national pastime, but it is a fact of that era, too. You can pick and choose who to blame or whatever concerning PEDs, but you can't deny a man's own confession. He admitted to using, it wasn't somebody here in that ridiculous thread started not too long ago.

Only the players who performed at extremely high levels should get the scrutiny is how I took his post.

[GiambiJuice]

Yup....DiMaggio is tops for me.

After that, it gets pretty tight very quickly.

Actually, let's play a game.

Not asking to number in order... that's too much work.

Just at first glance and based on opinion, can you put these guys in seven groupings of five?

If you choose as a wild-card....replace one of these guys with your own nomination and make note of it.

If you want I'll go first, just curious on where you stand on some righties

Kiner
Clemente
Rickey
Foxx
Thomas
FRobinson
Aaron
Brouthers
Mays
DAllen
Piazza
Delahanty
Heilmann
Hornsby
VGuerrero
Schmidt
Pujols
Wagner
Lajoie
DiMaggio
Simmons
Manny
Killebrew
Belle
Bagwell
Arod
FHoward
McGwire
EMartinez
Orr
Anson
Greenberg
Browning
MCabrera
Sosa

Wow, this was tough...I love Foxx and Piazza and Thomas but I couldn't in good conscious keep Mays and Aaron out of the first tier, considering their longevity and LQ.

I don't feel comfortable ranking the super old timers, so I replaced Orr, Anson, Delahanty, Brouthers and Browning with Sheffield, Winfield, Jeter, Ernie Banks and Joe Medwick

Only considering hitting...


Tier 1
Hornsby
Mays
Aaron
Pujols
Dimaggio


Tier 2
Thomas
Foxx
Piazza
Wagner
Manny

Tier 3
Arod
FRobinson
Heilmann
Greenberg
Simmons

Tier 4
Schmidt
McGwire
Cabrera
Lajoie
Killebrew

Tier 5
VGuererro
EMartinez
Bagwell
Kiner
DAllen

Tier 6
Clemente
Rickey
Sheffield
Belle
EBanks


Tier 7
FHoward
Sosa
Winfield
Jeter
Medwick

[Herr28]

Only the players who performed at extremely high levels should get the scrutiny is how I took his post.

But he did, for a catcher. We see it in every thread where his name pops up. Mike Piazza is the greatest hitting catcher ever in baseball history. We have at least one thread on it here, and many more with this line included. He sure is, it is right in the numbers for all to see. I agree with that when looking at his numbers compared with Bench, Campy, Berra, etc. However, this inconvenient little fact -- he used what was a legal PED at the time, but is still a PED -- doesn't get any air time. As if being the greatest hitting catcher in the world makes it OK, but not if he were among the greatest pitchers (Clemens), or HR sluggers (Mac and Sosa), or all around hitting talents (Bonds or Manny), or the greatest slugging shortstop (A-Rod), etc. That is how I see it.

I am not trying to take away the things that Piazza accomplished (regardless of what some may want to believe), I just find it horribly disingenuous to always trump up his great achievements above all other catchers without ever once mentioning this very important fact. Now, maybe some people want to see a huge list of chemicals they can't spell or pronounce as a part of a daily cocktail before they cast a guy into the cesspool of baseball's Hades. To me a guy uses something, he was enhancing his ability.

Therefore, when his numbers are compared to those like Bench, Campy, Berra and the others, it needs to be honestly addressed. Just as much as what parks they played in, which side of the plate they were born to hit from, which era they played in -- I would include which chemicals they were pumping into their bodies to get that enhanced edge on the field. Otherwise, I find it extremely unfair to compare his career achievements to the other catching greats who didn't benefit from chemical enhancement when they put up their numbers.

Now for the cascade of angry posts asking why I hate Piazza, etc. Rubbish. I always like Mike Piazza, and I still do. He's still my man in the offensive catcher debates, though some others got a lot closer when I found out about his admission. And, I still like Roger Clemens, Mark McGwire, Rafael Palmeiro and many others who were either busted or admitted using. I also keep in mind that they used substances when they put up their great numbers. I think that is fair.

[drstrangelove]

The Piazza on PEDs stuff is getting old already. As far as I'm concerned him and Bagwell are nowhere near the category of the Bonds' and Manny's and A-rods. Does rbat take position and home stadium into account? Put him at first base in a good hitting stadium and he would have led in multiple categories each year during his prime.

Only the players who performed at extremely high levels should get the scrutiny is how I took his post.

I agree completely with your interpretation. This is what was posted in the last 3 pages:

You keep attempting to write off Piazza as 'the fifteenth best hitter of his era'..but how about we look at him this way: by FAR the best hitter at his position in the history of the game.

I'm starting to believe that Piazza was perhaps the most talented right-handed hitter of all time.

Piazza is a top 15 hitter all-time, closer to #12 when adjustments are made imo.

If one person says "by FAR the best hitter at his position in the history of the game", another says "Piazza is a top 15 hitter all-time", and a third says "perhaps the most talented right-handed hitter of all time", then that to me qualifies as "performed at extremely high level."

One can't use those superlatives and NOT discuss that his success included beefing up on PEDs. I never called him a cheater. He took what people honestly thought was simply a protein supplement. I had some of the same stuff in my cabinet and I thought the same thing. MLB said it explicitly that it was okay to use and simply not cheating. I have repeatedly said he is a valid HoF candidate and in fact have voted for him on every poll because it's clear he did everything he could to make sure it was clean.

Doesn't change the fact that his dominance came partly from PEDs. Bench, Cochrane, Berra, Campy and Gibson would also have gotten beefier and more powerful and extended their dominance over their peers.


Some want Piazza to be the most amazing RH hitter ever (so he over shadows Gibson who indeed was considered the most amazing hitter ever), but want to ignore that he indeed wasn't the most amazing RH hitter ever. Lots of hitters that were his peers out hit him, and not by a little but by a lot. And lots of them were RH. And some of them didn't even use PEDs.


I think the facts say otherwise about Piazza. Below are Piazza and his peers. Most of them are RH hitters.

Player	        Rbat	 PA	Rate
Bonds	      1,128.5	12,606	.0895
Albert Pujols	682.6 	 9,241	.0739
Mark McGwire	545.5	 7,660	.0712
Frank Thomas	690.6	10,075	.0685
Manny Ramirez	651.3	 9,774	.0666
Miguel Cabrera	494.1	 7,811	.0633
Jeff Bagwell	591.0	 9,431	.0627
Edgar Martinez	531.5	 8,674	.0613
Jim Thome	587.3	10,313	.0569
Alex Rodriguez	634.3	11,344	.0559
[B][COLOR="#0000FF"]Mike Piazza	417.7	 7,745	.0539[/COLOR][/B]
Lance Berkman	420.4 	 7,814	.0538

Below 1990-2014 OPS+, at least 3,000 PA

	         OPS+	PA
Barry Bonds	195	10,218
Mark McGwire	170	 5,739
Albert Pujols	162	 9,241
Frank Thomas	156	10,075
Miguel Cabrera	154	 7,811
Joey Votto	154	 4,062
Manny Ramirez	154	 9,774
Jeff Bagwell	149	 9,431
Edgar Martinez	149	 8,394
Jim Thome	147	10,313
Albert Belle	146	 6,442
A McCutchen	144	 3,819
Lance Berkman	144	 7,814
Ryan Braun	143	 4,687
Alex Rodriguez	143	11,344
Gary Sheffield	143	10,453
[COLOR="#0000FF"][COLOR="#0000FF"][B]Mike Piazza	143	 7,745[/B][/COLOR][/COLOR]
Chipper Jones	141	10,614
Larry Walker	141	 7,974
Prince Fielder	140	 5,790

If Mike Piazza was so dominant why is he not first or second on these lists (the way Gibson was) but seems mired around 10-17th place?

[Herr28]

Great post, again, Doc. I used a lot of those supplements in the Army back then, too. I won't throw my fellow troops under the bus for using that stuff -- and much worse -- then either. It was legal at the time. It isn't now, nor has it been for a decade. He said he stopped using it when it went on the banned substance list, and I have no reason to doubt that claim. The fact is, he used a substance that is considered a PED. The other fact is, I know that because Mike Piazza told the world that he used that substance. Jack Clark wasn't fantasizing about batting practice conversations with guys about steroid use. Nope, this was Mike Piazza telling the tale.

We have threads here with many members that want to make adjustments for all kinds of things: home field advantages, handedness, relief pitching, training/equipment, era, and all sorts of things that guys have a hand in or zero control of whatsoever. I don't understand how the fact a guy was taking a chemical supplement to enhance his physical prowess doesn't get a seat at the adjustment table. It is more reasonable to adjust for that than it is to factor for something a guy was born with (his ability to hit right and/or left-handed).

[1905 Giants]

You mean the depth of the HR's or what fields they hit them to or their swing or stance?

Depths of HR.

[Yankillaz]

Many data to quantify the best hitting players ever. Great. Does this helps Piazza or Gibson? Just asking.

Apparently Gibson since his percentage is increasing.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Many data to quantify the best hitting players ever. Great. Does this helps Piazza or Gibson? Just asking.

Apparently Gibson since his percentage is increasing.

We'll never know who was "better" or "greater". Piazza and Gibson played 50 years apart in vastly different games (different ballparks, different gloves, different bats, different baseballs, different rules, different players, etc.). Comparing stats is useless because of this.

[Herr28]

Many data to quantify the best hitting players ever. Great. Does this helps Piazza or Gibson? Just asking.

Apparently Gibson since his percentage is increasing.

Jim Albright just made an excellent post in the Josh Gibson thread in the Negro League forum here. In it he explains the data that has been collected on Gibson's career in the leagues he played in, and how it shows him to be among the greatest in those leagues. Albright admits that more data would be useful, it always is, but everything we have on Gibson proves the eyewitness testimony, that he was among the best of the best in his respective leagues. It is post #54 I believe, put in there this afternoon.

[Yankillaz]

We'll never know who was "better" or "greater". Paizza and Gibson played 50 years apart in vastly different games (different ballparks, different gloves, different bats, different baseballs, different rules, different players, etc.). Comparing stats is useless because of this.

Amen!!! But in the meantime Gibson is gaining some ground.