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Mike Piazza vs Josh Gibson

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  • Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
    No. Based on the proven league performance throughout history, it is expected you'll do better at home. When you do the reverse, it means something.
    You apparently didn’t read my post, at least not as subsequently modified to provide some evidence. You usually will NOT hit better at home if you play in a very pitcher-friendly park. I don’t know how to make that point any clearer than with Posey’s numbers. To repeat, Posey has slugged 0.073 higher on the road than at home over the past four years. Why? Because his home park is relatively disadvantageous for hitters. And I can assure you, you can look at the home-away numbers for other players who have home pitcher parks, and in most cases, you will see the same thing.

    The home team does have a slight advantage over the road team, other things being equal, but that is not the same thing.

    It looks at a players road SA compared to their specific leagues road SA. Using that we get a relative number. It then does the exact same with OBP to get a relative number.

    Those numbers are added together, we subtract 1.

    We then divide the players league specific OPS+ by 100 to remove pitchers from the league, and multiply it by the former number...then multiply by 100.

    The next step is giving the player home, which is multplying by 3 and then adding raw OPS+. This step does something like take Boggs from a 116.0 to 119.7 because we're giving him back Fenway.
    I don’t follow a lot of this. You divide OPS+ by 100—how does that remove pitchers?—then multiply by the former number—what is the former number?—then multiply by 100—if you are going to divided by 100 then multiply by 100, why don’t those two steps cancel?

    What do you multiply by 3?

    I will have to get back to you on this when I have more time to figure it out. I think you are determining the ratio of the player's road production to league average, then adding that to home production that is modified in some way to take into account park differences. For now, I'll just make two points:

    1) OPS is not as good a measure of performance as RC, because it weights OBP equally with SLG, whereas the former should be weighted about 1.7-1.8 times more;

    2) while I think road performance is a pretty good measure of a player, since the different parks tend to average out, if you play in a pitcher friendly park, your road environment, on average, is a little more hitter friendly than it is for a player in the same league playing in a hitter friendly park. Park factors I think are the best way we have yet of correcting for problems like these.

    Piazza faced specialized relief as a righty in horrible home parks, while catching. I'm not sure how you can look at that, and not be impressed. Past catchers dealt with their own issues. One of them being, that the position used to be much more defense oriented. I get that.
    Yes, but all of his contemporaries also faced the same relief. The whole point of value stats like wRC+ is that they compare a player to his contemporaries. Piazza was so many % better than the players who faced the same relievers he did.

    Sure, players in the past might not have faced such tough pitching late in the games. But guess what? Neither did their contemporaries. Which means that their contemporaries also had any advantage of inflated hitting stats resulting from weaker pitching. Any stat that compares a player to league average is going to be affected the same way, regardless of era.

    Yeah, I'm not much interested in a stat that doesn't consider how hindered a guy was by his home park. If I was, I might consider Klein in my top 10.
    I have pointed out several times that wRC+ does take into account park factors. That is one reason why it’s such a good measure of offensive production.

    1)We're talking about a catcher here. That has to be worth something in your mind.
    Sure, but now we’re getting into hypotheticals. If he had played 1B his whole career, maybe he would have hit better. Maybe, but we don’t know how much. If someone wants to make an argument for how much, I need to see some data.

    2)We're talking about the most specialized relief in history. The most focused on batter in the lineup.
    To repeat, this is all accounted for in wRC+. Or in OPS+, for that matter.

    I just think it's funny you keep mentioning that "oh by the way, he played in pitcher parks," as if that's just a side note. No, that's HUGE. That's half his games per season. We're taking care of that problem with rrOPS+. That's how Bill Terry ends up 12 points higher than Larry Walker.
    I don’t know how you infer I regard that as a side note. On the contrary, that fact is why he hit better on the road. And to emphasize yet again, wRC+ does correct for this.
    Last edited by Stolensingle; 02-13-2015, 01:08 AM.

    Comment


    • Code:
      Player	        Rbat	 PA	Rate
      Ruth	      1,335.4	10,622	.1257
      Williams      1,069.3	 9,788	.1092
      Lou Gehrig	971.4	 9,663	.1005
      Rogers Hornsby	861.3 	 9,480	.0909
      Dan Brouthers	687.7	 7,676	.0896
      Bonds	      1,128.5	12,606	.0895
      Mickey Mantle	802.4	 9,907	.0810
      Jimmie Foxx	759.2 	 9,676	.0785
      S Joe Jackson	439.1	 5,695	.0771
      Pete Browning	404.9	 5,315	.0762
      Ty Cobb	        995.8	13,084	.0761
      Albert Pujols	682.6 	 9,241	.0739
      Mark McGwire	545.5	 7,660	.0712
      Hank Greenberg	433.5	 6,097	.0711
      Stan Musial	885.3	12,717	.0696
      Joe DiMaggio	529.4	 7,673	.0690
      Frank Thomas	690.6	10,075	.0685
      Johnny Mize	504.7 	 7,370	.0685
      Tris Speaker	819.3	11,992	.0683
      Mel Ott	        775.3	11,348	.0683
      Ed Delahanty	570.9 	 8,400	.0680
      Manny Ramirez	651.3	 9,774	.0666
      Billy Hamilton	501.4 	 7,608	.0659
      Roger Connor	582.2	 8,847	.0658
      Willie Mays	808.8	12,496	.0647
      Miguel Cabrera	494.1	 7,811	.0633
      Hank Aaron	875.1	13,941	.0628
      Jeff Bagwell	591.0	 9,431	.0627
      Frank Robinson	729.7	11,742	.0621
      Edgar Martinez	531.5	 8,674	.0613
      Harry Heilmann	547.0	 8,964	.0610
      Sam Thompson	389.5	 6,525	.0597
      Dick Allen	435.3	 7,315	.0595
      Jim Thome	587.3	10,313	.0569
      Alex Rodriguez	634.3	11,344	.0559
      Cap Anson	629.3	11,331	.0555
      Nap Lajoie	576.6	10,461	.0551
      Honus Wagner	639.2	11,748	.0544
      Mike Piazza	417.7	 7,745	.0539
      Jesse Burkett	517.6	 9,620	.0538
      Lance Berkman	420.4 	 7,814	.0538
      Elmer Flick	339.5	 6,414	.0529
      Chipper Jones	558.3	10,614	.0526
      Mike Schmidt	527.1	10,062	.0524
      Larry Walker	419.9	 8,030	.0523
      Eddie Collins	627.9	12,044	.0521
      Albert Belle	343.1	 6,676	.0514
      Gary Sheffield	560.7	10,947	.0512
      Willie McCovey	486.9	 9,692	.0502
      Eddie Mathews	505.5	10,100	.0500
      Jason Giambi	443.8	 8,908	.0498
      H Killebrew     486.5	 9,833	.0495
      Willie Stargell	433.5	 9,027	.0480
      Bill Terry	338.8 	 7,108	.0477
      Chuck Klein	340.1	 7,170	.0474
      Here is Rbat, PA and Rbat/PA which is called Rate. Rate is the sort field and it demonstrates the rate that players accumulate Rbat per PA. I show Piazza as 39th. Certainly an excellent number for a catcher. But hardly a top 12 hitter. All 3 numbers for Piazza in fact are nearly identical to Lance Berkman, 2 ranks lower.


      Lance of course is not in Piazza's category since he's not on anyone's PED lists. Neither are Schmidt, Walkers, Collins, Mathews, McCovey, Killebrew, Stargell or Klein. And it's of course almost starkly obvious that the list is very heavily weighted towards players who began their careers between 1986-2000. Fully 1/3 of the players on this list that played in 1986-2000 have admitted to PED use or tested positive for use.

      Bottom line is while Piazza on PEDs certainly exceeds non PED users like Bench, Cochrane, Berra and Campanella, he doesn't look remotely like the best of his era. Bonds, Pujols, Cabrera, Martinez, Thomas, Thome, Bagwell, Ramirez and McGwire simply dwarf him. With ARod, he doesn't rank in the top 10 among his peers. Top 12 since 1871 seems more than a stretch.

      For those who like Piazza as a RH hitter.....Pujols, Cabrera, Martinez, Thomas, Bagwell, Ramirez, McGwire and ARod are all RH and ahead of him on this list. Not to mention a slew of others who weren't his peers.


      There's a reason Piazza never once led the league in runs scored, triples, homers, runs batted in, batting average, slugging average or total bases----things DiMaggio did multiple times with a horrendous home park. Aaron's another RH hitter who played in a pitcher's park while leading the league multiple times in multiple offensive categories.
      Last edited by drstrangelove; 02-13-2015, 05:52 AM.
      "It's better to look good, than be good."

      Comment


      • Lance Berkman is/was an outstanding and underrated hitter in his career. Not as much power from the right side, as he had coming at pitchers from the left, but one of the greatest all-time switch-hitters in baseball history.
        "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

        Comment


        • Originally posted by drstrangelove View Post
          Code:
          Player	        Rbat	 PA	Rate
          Ruth	      1,335.4	10,622	.1257
          Williams      1,069.3	 9,788	.1092
          Lou Gehrig	971.4	 9,663	.1005
          Rogers Hornsby	861.3 	 9,480	.0909
          Dan Brouthers	687.7	 7,676	.0896
          Bonds	      1,128.5	12,606	.0895
          Mickey Mantle	802.4	 9,907	.0810
          Jimmie Foxx	759.2 	 9,676	.0785
          S Joe Jackson	439.1	 5,695	.0771
          Pete Browning	404.9	 5,315	.0762
          Ty Cobb	        995.8	13,084	.0761
          Albert Pujols	682.6 	 9,241	.0739
          Mark McGwire	545.5	 7,660	.0712
          Hank Greenberg	433.5	 6,097	.0711
          Stan Musial	885.3	12,717	.0696
          Joe DiMaggio	529.4	 7,673	.0690
          Frank Thomas	690.6	10,075	.0685
          Johnny Mize	504.7 	 7,370	.0685
          Tris Speaker	819.3	11,992	.0683
          Mel Ott	        775.3	11,348	.0683
          Ed Delahanty	570.9 	 8,400	.0680
          Manny Ramirez	651.3	 9,774	.0666
          Billy Hamilton	501.4 	 7,608	.0659
          Roger Connor	582.2	 8,847	.0658
          Willie Mays	808.8	12,496	.0647
          Miguel Cabrera	494.1	 7,811	.0633
          Hank Aaron	875.1	13,941	.0628
          Jeff Bagwell	591.0	 9,431	.0627
          Frank Robinson	729.7	11,742	.0621
          Edgar Martinez	531.5	 8,674	.0613
          Harry Heilmann	547.0	 8,964	.0610
          Sam Thompson	389.5	 6,525	.0597
          Dick Allen	435.3	 7,315	.0595
          Jim Thome	587.3	10,313	.0569
          Alex Rodriguez	634.3	11,344	.0559
          Cap Anson	629.3	11,331	.0555
          Nap Lajoie	576.6	10,461	.0551
          Honus Wagner	639.2	11,748	.0544
          Mike Piazza	417.7	 7,745	.0539
          Jesse Burkett	517.6	 9,620	.0538
          Lance Berkman	420.4 	 7,814	.0538
          Elmer Flick	339.5	 6,414	.0529
          Chipper Jones	558.3	10,614	.0526
          Mike Schmidt	527.1	10,062	.0524
          Larry Walker	419.9	 8,030	.0523
          Eddie Collins	627.9	12,044	.0521
          Albert Belle	343.1	 6,676	.0514
          Gary Sheffield	560.7	10,947	.0512
          Willie McCovey	486.9	 9,692	.0502
          Eddie Mathews	505.5	10,100	.0500
          Jason Giambi	443.8	 8,908	.0498
          H Killebrew     486.5	 9,833	.0495
          Willie Stargell	433.5	 9,027	.0480
          Bill Terry	338.8 	 7,108	.0477
          Chuck Klein	340.1	 7,170	.0474
          Here is Rbat, PA and Rbat/PA which is called Rate. Rate is the sort field and it demonstrates the rate that players accumulate Rbat per PA. I show Piazza as 39th. Certainly an excellent number for a catcher. But hardly a top 12 hitter. All 3 numbers for Piazza in fact are nearly identical to Lance Berkman, 2 ranks lower.


          Lance of course is not in Piazza's category since he's not on anyone's PED lists. Neither are Schmidt, Walkers, Collins, Mathews, McCovey, Killebrew, Stargell or Klein. And it's of course almost starkly obvious that the list is very heavily weighted towards players who began their careers between 1986-2000. Fully 1/3 of the players on this list that played in 1986-2000 have admitted to PED use or tested positive for use.

          Bottom line is while Piazza on PEDs certainly exceeds non PED users like Bench, Cochrane, Berra and Campanella, he doesn't look remotely like the best of his era. Bonds, Pujols, Cabrera, Martinez, Thomas, Thome, Bagwell, Ramirez and McGwire simply dwarf him. With ARod, he doesn't rank in the top 10 among his peers. Top 12 since 1871 seems more than a stretch.

          For those who like Piazza as a RH hitter.....Pujols, Cabrera, Martinez, Thomas, Bagwell, Ramirez, McGwire and ARod are all RH and ahead of him on this list. Not to mention a slew of others who weren't his peers.


          There's a reason Piazza never once led the league in runs scored, triples, homers, runs batted in, batting average, slugging average or total bases----things DiMaggio did multiple times with a horrendous home park. Aaron's another RH hitter who played in a pitcher's park while leading the league multiple times in multiple offensive categories.
          The Piazza on PEDs stuff is getting old already. As far as I'm concerned him and Bagwell are nowhere near the category of the Bonds' and Manny's and A-rods. Does rbat take position and home stadium into account? Put him at first base in a good hitting stadium and he would have led in multiple categories each year during his prime.
          Last edited by willshad; 02-13-2015, 08:58 AM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by willshad View Post
            The Piazza on PEDs stuff is getting old already. As far as I'm concerned him and Bagwell are nowhere near the category of the Bonds' and Manny's and A-rods. Does rbat take position and home stadium into account? Put him at first base in a good hitting stadium and he would have led in multiple categories each year during his prime.
            Do you get tired of hearing about all the guys who admitted to using? Or just Piazza? It is a tiresome era of our national pastime, but it is a fact of that era, too. You can pick and choose who to blame or whatever concerning PEDs, but you can't deny a man's own confession. He admitted to using, it wasn't somebody here in that ridiculous thread started not too long ago.
            "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Herr28 View Post
              Do you get tired of hearing about all the guys who admitted to using? Or just Piazza? It is a tiresome era of our national pastime, but it is a fact of that era, too. You can pick and choose who to blame or whatever concerning PEDs, but you can't deny a man's own confession. He admitted to using, it wasn't somebody here in that ridiculous thread started not too long ago.
              Only the players who performed at extremely high levels should get the scrutiny is how I took his post.
              Dave Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Dick Alex Sparky
              Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
              Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
              Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
              Robin Bill Ernie JEDI

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
                Yup....DiMaggio is tops for me.

                After that, it gets pretty tight very quickly.

                Actually, let's play a game.

                Not asking to number in order... that's too much work.

                Just at first glance and based on opinion, can you put these guys in seven groupings of five?

                If you choose as a wild-card....replace one of these guys with your own nomination and make note of it.

                If you want I'll go first, just curious on where you stand on some righties

                Kiner
                Clemente
                Rickey
                Foxx
                Thomas
                FRobinson
                Aaron
                Brouthers
                Mays
                DAllen
                Piazza
                Delahanty
                Heilmann
                Hornsby
                VGuerrero
                Schmidt
                Pujols
                Wagner
                Lajoie
                DiMaggio
                Simmons
                Manny
                Killebrew
                Belle
                Bagwell
                Arod
                FHoward
                McGwire
                EMartinez
                Orr
                Anson
                Greenberg
                Browning
                MCabrera
                Sosa
                Wow, this was tough...I love Foxx and Piazza and Thomas but I couldn't in good conscious keep Mays and Aaron out of the first tier, considering their longevity and LQ.

                I don't feel comfortable ranking the super old timers, so I replaced Orr, Anson, Delahanty, Brouthers and Browning with Sheffield, Winfield, Jeter, Ernie Banks and Joe Medwick

                Only considering hitting...


                Tier 1
                Hornsby
                Mays
                Aaron
                Pujols
                Dimaggio


                Tier 2
                Thomas
                Foxx
                Piazza
                Wagner
                Manny

                Tier 3
                Arod
                FRobinson
                Heilmann
                Greenberg
                Simmons

                Tier 4
                Schmidt
                McGwire
                Cabrera
                Lajoie
                Killebrew

                Tier 5
                VGuererro
                EMartinez
                Bagwell
                Kiner
                DAllen

                Tier 6
                Clemente
                Rickey
                Sheffield
                Belle
                EBanks


                Tier 7
                FHoward
                Sosa
                Winfield
                Jeter
                Medwick
                My top 10 players:

                1. Babe Ruth
                2. Barry Bonds
                3. Ty Cobb
                4. Ted Williams
                5. Willie Mays
                6. Alex Rodriguez
                7. Hank Aaron
                8. Honus Wagner
                9. Lou Gehrig
                10. Mickey Mantle

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
                  Only the players who performed at extremely high levels should get the scrutiny is how I took his post.
                  But he did, for a catcher. We see it in every thread where his name pops up. Mike Piazza is the greatest hitting catcher ever in baseball history. We have at least one thread on it here, and many more with this line included. He sure is, it is right in the numbers for all to see. I agree with that when looking at his numbers compared with Bench, Campy, Berra, etc. However, this inconvenient little fact -- he used what was a legal PED at the time, but is still a PED -- doesn't get any air time. As if being the greatest hitting catcher in the world makes it OK, but not if he were among the greatest pitchers (Clemens), or HR sluggers (Mac and Sosa), or all around hitting talents (Bonds or Manny), or the greatest slugging shortstop (A-Rod), etc. That is how I see it.

                  I am not trying to take away the things that Piazza accomplished (regardless of what some may want to believe), I just find it horribly disingenuous to always trump up his great achievements above all other catchers without ever once mentioning this very important fact. Now, maybe some people want to see a huge list of chemicals they can't spell or pronounce as a part of a daily cocktail before they cast a guy into the cesspool of baseball's Hades. To me a guy uses something, he was enhancing his ability.

                  Therefore, when his numbers are compared to those like Bench, Campy, Berra and the others, it needs to be honestly addressed. Just as much as what parks they played in, which side of the plate they were born to hit from, which era they played in -- I would include which chemicals they were pumping into their bodies to get that enhanced edge on the field. Otherwise, I find it extremely unfair to compare his career achievements to the other catching greats who didn't benefit from chemical enhancement when they put up their numbers.

                  Now for the cascade of angry posts asking why I hate Piazza, etc. Rubbish. I always like Mike Piazza, and I still do. He's still my man in the offensive catcher debates, though some others got a lot closer when I found out about his admission. And, I still like Roger Clemens, Mark McGwire, Rafael Palmeiro and many others who were either busted or admitted using. I also keep in mind that they used substances when they put up their great numbers. I think that is fair.
                  "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by willshad View Post
                    The Piazza on PEDs stuff is getting old already. As far as I'm concerned him and Bagwell are nowhere near the category of the Bonds' and Manny's and A-rods. Does rbat take position and home stadium into account? Put him at first base in a good hitting stadium and he would have led in multiple categories each year during his prime.
                    Originally posted by Captain Cold Nose View Post
                    Only the players who performed at extremely high levels should get the scrutiny is how I took his post.
                    I agree completely with your interpretation. This is what was posted in the last 3 pages:




                    Originally posted by willshad View Post
                    You keep attempting to write off Piazza as 'the fifteenth best hitter of his era'..but how about we look at him this way: by FAR the best hitter at his position in the history of the game.
                    Originally posted by pheasant View Post
                    I'm starting to believe that Piazza was perhaps the most talented right-handed hitter of all time.
                    Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
                    Piazza is a top 15 hitter all-time, closer to #12 when adjustments are made imo.


                    If one person says "by FAR the best hitter at his position in the history of the game", another says "Piazza is a top 15 hitter all-time", and a third says "perhaps the most talented right-handed hitter of all time", then that to me qualifies as "performed at extremely high level."

                    One can't use those superlatives and NOT discuss that his success included beefing up on PEDs. I never called him a cheater. He took what people honestly thought was simply a protein supplement. I had some of the same stuff in my cabinet and I thought the same thing. MLB said it explicitly that it was okay to use and simply not cheating. I have repeatedly said he is a valid HoF candidate and in fact have voted for him on every poll because it's clear he did everything he could to make sure it was clean.

                    Doesn't change the fact that his dominance came partly from PEDs. Bench, Cochrane, Berra, Campy and Gibson would also have gotten beefier and more powerful and extended their dominance over their peers.


                    Some want Piazza to be the most amazing RH hitter ever (so he over shadows Gibson who indeed was considered the most amazing hitter ever), but want to ignore that he indeed wasn't the most amazing RH hitter ever. Lots of hitters that were his peers out hit him, and not by a little but by a lot. And lots of them were RH. And some of them didn't even use PEDs.


                    I think the facts say otherwise about Piazza. Below are Piazza and his peers. Most of them are RH hitters.

                    Code:
                    Player	        Rbat	 PA	Rate
                    Bonds	      1,128.5	12,606	.0895
                    Albert Pujols	682.6 	 9,241	.0739
                    Mark McGwire	545.5	 7,660	.0712
                    Frank Thomas	690.6	10,075	.0685
                    Manny Ramirez	651.3	 9,774	.0666
                    Miguel Cabrera	494.1	 7,811	.0633
                    Jeff Bagwell	591.0	 9,431	.0627
                    Edgar Martinez	531.5	 8,674	.0613
                    Jim Thome	587.3	10,313	.0569
                    Alex Rodriguez	634.3	11,344	.0559
                    [B][COLOR="#0000FF"]Mike Piazza	417.7	 7,745	.0539[/COLOR][/B]
                    Lance Berkman	420.4 	 7,814	.0538

                    Below 1990-2014 OPS+, at least 3,000 PA
                    Code:
                    	         OPS+	PA
                    Barry Bonds	195	10,218
                    Mark McGwire	170	 5,739
                    Albert Pujols	162	 9,241
                    Frank Thomas	156	10,075
                    Miguel Cabrera	154	 7,811
                    Joey Votto	154	 4,062
                    Manny Ramirez	154	 9,774
                    Jeff Bagwell	149	 9,431
                    Edgar Martinez	149	 8,394
                    Jim Thome	147	10,313
                    Albert Belle	146	 6,442
                    A McCutchen	144	 3,819
                    Lance Berkman	144	 7,814
                    Ryan Braun	143	 4,687
                    Alex Rodriguez	143	11,344
                    Gary Sheffield	143	10,453
                    [COLOR="#0000FF"][COLOR="#0000FF"][B]Mike Piazza	143	 7,745[/B][/COLOR][/COLOR]
                    Chipper Jones	141	10,614
                    Larry Walker	141	 7,974
                    Prince Fielder	140	 5,790
                    If Mike Piazza was so dominant why is he not first or second on these lists (the way Gibson was) but seems mired around 10-17th place?
                    Last edited by drstrangelove; 02-13-2015, 02:38 PM.
                    "It's better to look good, than be good."

                    Comment


                    • Great post, again, Doc. I used a lot of those supplements in the Army back then, too. I won't throw my fellow troops under the bus for using that stuff -- and much worse -- then either. It was legal at the time. It isn't now, nor has it been for a decade. He said he stopped using it when it went on the banned substance list, and I have no reason to doubt that claim. The fact is, he used a substance that is considered a PED. The other fact is, I know that because Mike Piazza told the world that he used that substance. Jack Clark wasn't fantasizing about batting practice conversations with guys about steroid use. Nope, this was Mike Piazza telling the tale.

                      We have threads here with many members that want to make adjustments for all kinds of things: home field advantages, handedness, relief pitching, training/equipment, era, and all sorts of things that guys have a hand in or zero control of whatsoever. I don't understand how the fact a guy was taking a chemical supplement to enhance his physical prowess doesn't get a seat at the adjustment table. It is more reasonable to adjust for that than it is to factor for something a guy was born with (his ability to hit right and/or left-handed).
                      "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
                        You mean the depth of the HR's or what fields they hit them to or their swing or stance?
                        Depths of HR.
                        "The first draft of anything is crap." - Ernest Hemingway

                        There's no such thing as an ultimate stat.

                        Comment


                        • Many data to quantify the best hitting players ever. Great. Does this helps Piazza or Gibson? Just asking.

                          Apparently Gibson since his percentage is increasing.
                          "I am not too serious about anything. I believe you have to enjoy yourself to get the most out of your ability."-
                          George Brett

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Yankillaz View Post
                            Many data to quantify the best hitting players ever. Great. Does this helps Piazza or Gibson? Just asking.

                            Apparently Gibson since his percentage is increasing.
                            We'll never know who was "better" or "greater". Piazza and Gibson played 50 years apart in vastly different games (different ballparks, different gloves, different bats, different baseballs, different rules, different players, etc.). Comparing stats is useless because of this.
                            Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 02-13-2015, 02:32 PM.
                            Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Yankillaz View Post
                              Many data to quantify the best hitting players ever. Great. Does this helps Piazza or Gibson? Just asking.

                              Apparently Gibson since his percentage is increasing.
                              Jim Albright just made an excellent post in the Josh Gibson thread in the Negro League forum here. In it he explains the data that has been collected on Gibson's career in the leagues he played in, and how it shows him to be among the greatest in those leagues. Albright admits that more data would be useful, it always is, but everything we have on Gibson proves the eyewitness testimony, that he was among the best of the best in his respective leagues. It is post #54 I believe, put in there this afternoon.
                              "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

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                              • Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
                                We'll never know who was "better" or "greater". Paizza and Gibson played 50 years apart in vastly different games (different ballparks, different gloves, different bats, different baseballs, different rules, different players, etc.). Comparing stats is useless because of this.
                                Amen!!! But in the meantime Gibson is gaining some ground.
                                "I am not too serious about anything. I believe you have to enjoy yourself to get the most out of your ability."-
                                George Brett

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