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  • Originally posted by Herr28 View Post
    Jim Albright just made an excellent post in the Josh Gibson thread in the Negro League forum here. In it he explains the data that has been collected on Gibson's career in the leagues he played in, and how it shows him to be among the greatest in those leagues. Albright admits that more data would be useful, it always is, but everything we have on Gibson proves the eyewitness testimony, that he was among the best of the best in his respective leagues. It is post #54 I believe, put in there this afternoon.
    The data confirms what everyone who saw Gibson play said about him: he was tremendous of-the-charts baseball talent.
    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
      The data confirms what everyone who saw Gibson play said about him: he was tremendous of-the-charts baseball talent.
      Absolutely, I couldn't agree more.
      "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

      Comment


      • Works for me. What he said *points at Herr28

        Comment


        • I found some interesting material on statistics from the Negro Leagues. It appears that individual statistics include interleague games and games against strong independent clubs, barnstorming and exhibition games. Unfortunately the final accuracy of these results are nowhere near the stats provided by MLB. See below:

          Negro League Data Sources
          Sports Reference's Approach On NLB Data Presented

          "This data comes from two sources: The Negro Leagues Researchers and Authors Group put together by the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum and Gary Ashwill and his collaborators. The Hall of Fame data is found for the years 1920-1948 and the Ashwill data is found from 1902-1919.

          Official statistics were not tabulated for Negro League clubs. The statistics reported here have been constructed based upon newspaper accounts and other resources. Game accounts are not always complete and many are missing entirely, so the data are incomplete in many instances. Team totals are generally computed as the sum of player totals, and therefore are also partial.

          The data presented here are based on currently available research; future research may lead to revisions as new information comes to light. Negro League clubs played significant numbers of interleague games and games against strong independent clubs. Individual statistics reported here can at times include many of these games, and therefore totals do not balance in categories. The won-lost records in the league standings tables reflect games which counted towards the championship; in some years, some leagues included games against selected strong independent clubs as counting towards the league standings.

          This database is under active development. Many statistics are incomplete due to ongoing research and/or limitations in published sources, so please be assured that we are aware there are issues with the data and will continue to work with our data providers to improve the data that appears here."

          And this:

          "Description and Criteria (NBHFM)

          Unfortunately, there are no official statistical sources for Negro Leagues Baseball. Much of the game-by-game detail was lost or seldom reported in the years following the demise of these leagues. However, during the past several decades there have been several attempts to collect and rebuild these statistics, mainly using data supplied by boxscores and game accounts published in the many African-American newspapers which existed during the past century. Unfortunately, due to the existence of multiple leagues, and team schedules which regularly included barnstorming and exhibition events, there is no general agreement on what should and should not be counted. Therefore, each of the data sets will contain different information, all premised upon the criteria established by the group or individuals involved.

          For purposes of this database, the Negro League Researchers and Authors Group established a strict set of criteria for inclusion on this data set. Data is only included for league sanctioned games from 1920 to 1948 for which a published boxscore or credible scorebook existed. Statistics gleaned from game accounts alone without a supporting boxscore were not included in this study. Other games are acknowledged as being part of the African-American baseball story, but the data is not included here.

          Component Findings:
          •This dataset includes information from the following leagues Negro National League (NNL), Negro American League (NAL), American Negro League (ANL), East-West League (EWL), Negro Southern League (NSL), and the Eastern Colored League (ECL). Game data includes league games, all-star, playoff and World Series games.
          •Some years we found every box score listed in the league schedule. Other years, less than 50% of the scheduled games were located. The year 1948 was determined to be the last year for the study because it was the last year of a sanctioned, official World Series.

          Challenge Posed by Incomplete Statistics: (NBHFM)

          Boxscore information:
          •Microfilmed boxscores difficult to read because of poor print quality
          •Sometimes game dates are difficult to identify
          •Two newspapers covering the same game report different results
          •Game text will mention players not listed in the boxscore
          •Game text will differ from the boxscore data
          •All positions are not listed, or two players are playing the same position
          •Misspelled names
          •Names are spelled phonetically
          •Only Nickname listed
          •No first name given
          •Less than nine players listed

          Batting:
          •Total team hits do not equal total of individual hits
          •Total team runs do not equal total of individual runs
          •Sometimes at-bats are not listed
          •Sometimes runs scored are not listed
          •Sometimes RBIs are not listed
          •Calculation of walks is a challenging task
          •Sacrifice hits and sacrifice flies are not distinctively identified
          •Sometimes sacrifices (hits and/or flies) are counted as at-bats
          •Sometimes extra base hits are not listed
          •Sometimes fielding errors are not listed
          •Sometimes stolen bases are not listed
          •Caught stealing is never listed in a boxscore
          •Strikeouts by individual batters are not listed
          •No hit batsmen are listed, making it difficult to calculate walks
          •Pinch hitters and pinch runners are sometimes omitted
          •No breakdown of defensive innings for multi-positions players
          •Batting orders are not always sequential, with substitutes at the bottom

          Pitching:
          •Total team hits do not match total hits given up by pitcher(s)
          •Total team runs do no match total runs given up by pitcher(s)
          •Number of innings pitched not listed
          •Breakdown of innings pitched by pitcher not available
          •Breakdown of runs allowed not consistently listed
          •Breakdown of earned runs not consistently listed
          •Breakdown of hits allowed not consistently listed
          •Breakdown of strikeouts not consistently listed
          •Breakdown of walks not consistently listed
          •Only the winning pitcher is listed
          •Starting pitchers not always identified
          •Some boxscores are totally void of pitching statistics"
          ". . . the Ruth, the whole Ruth and nothing but the Ruth . . ."

          Comment


          • Were you unaware of the reason people have been working hard to reconstruct as many of the league games as possible? If all the games had been scored and stored, we would have complete stats. There have been a lot of people researching and working to put together as complete a record as they can, even though nobody is under the assumption that every stat will be counted.
            "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

            Comment


            • I simply find it amazing that people put the time and effort to document the Negro Leagers' stats that we have now. It must have been an enormously time consuming and tedious task to say the least. Scouring through newspaper after newspaper is not easy.
              Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 02-13-2015, 05:36 PM.
              Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
                I simply find it amazing that people put the time and effort to document that Negro Leagers' stats that we have now. It must have been an enormously time consuming and tedious task to say the least. Scouring through newspaper after newspaper is not easy.
                You would know! You have found some outstanding pictures for that other thread, and the action thread as well. Thanks again for doing that and sharing them with us! You are the man, HWR!
                "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Badge714 View Post
                  I found some interesting material on statistics from the Negro Leagues.
                  When I was growing up I found some interesting material on statistics from the major leagues. A large number of the stats I was told were correct, actually turned out to be wrong.


                  There were lots of errors. Pitchers wins were wrong, strikeouts were wrong, and there were no save statistics. Batter hits, HBP, batting averages, total bases and RBI's were wrong and there were no caught stealing statistics. (CS is still far from complete.)

                  Fielding stats were wrong, and data was missing in many eras for the players correct or full name. Even today there are many batters and pitchers listed without knowing which hand they threw with or which side of the plate they batted on.

                  When I grew up there were no easily accessed game logs prior to the 50's and no one had pitch counts past the 70's. Games on the west coast might not get reported in the most common eastern papers because the game was in progress when the eastern paper stopped publishing. That restricted actual full box scores sometimes to just a hand full of west coast papers.

                  Changes in official score keeping (errors to hits, hits to errors, crediting or removing an RBI, changing a SF) might not make it anywhere in a paper.



                  And the only reason some of that data exists today is because a lot of people spent a lot of time recreating it. Anyone who thinks MLB stats prior to 1950 are absolutely correct is living with a fantasy. NeL stats will be combed through and rebuilt as well as possible.
                  Last edited by drstrangelove; 02-13-2015, 05:35 PM.
                  "It's better to look good, than be good."

                  Comment


                  • Absolutely! Kudos to those researchers.


                    Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
                    I simply find it amazing that people put the time and effort to document that Negro Leagers' stats that we have now. It must have been an enormously time consuming and tedious task to say the least. Scouring through newspaper after newspaper is not easy.
                    ". . . the Ruth, the whole Ruth and nothing but the Ruth . . ."

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by drstrangelove View Post

                      Here is Rbat, PA and Rbat/PA which is called Rate. Rate is the sort field and it demonstrates the rate that players accumulate Rbat per PA. I show Piazza as 39th. Certainly an excellent number for a catcher. But hardly a top 12 hitter. All 3 numbers for Piazza in fact are nearly identical to Lance Berkman, 2 ranks lower.
                      Very much in line with what I posted earlier re wRC+ and OPS+. I think Rbat includes park factors, though I can't find a direct statement of that.

                      Note that Gene Tenace, whose career wRC+ is the same as Piazza's, just misses making your list at 0.0469.

                      Comment


                      • Not a bad box score for 1914:


                        http://www.baseball-reference.com/bo...91407110.shtml
                        ". . . the Ruth, the whole Ruth and nothing but the Ruth . . ."

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by drstrangelove View Post
                          When I was growing up I found some interesting material on statistics from the major leagues. A large number of the stats I was told were correct, actually turned out to be wrong.


                          There were lots of errors. Pitchers wins were wrong, strikeouts were wrong, and there were no save statistics. Batter hits, HBP, batting averages, total bases and RBI's were wrong and there were no caught stealing statistics. (CS is still far from complete.)

                          Fielding stats were wrong, and data was missing in many eras for the players correct or full name. Even today there are many batters and pitchers listed without knowing which hand they threw with or which side of the plate they batted on.

                          When I grew up there were no easily accessed game logs prior to the 50's and no one had pitch counts past the 70's. Games on the west coast might not get reported in the most common eastern papers because the game was in progress when the eastern paper stopped publishing. That restricted actual full box scores sometimes to just a hand full of west coast papers.

                          Changes in official score keeping (errors to hits, hits to errors, crediting or removing an RBI, changing a SF) might not make it anywhere in a paper.



                          And the only reason some of that data exists today is because a lot of people spent a lot of time recreating it. Anyone who thinks MLB stats prior to 1950 are absolutely correct is living with a fantasy. NeL stats will be combed through and rebuilt as well as possible.
                          Even at that, the MLB game accounts were far more accurate and complete than in the Negro League. Where did you ever get the recreating.
                          Box scores appeared in hundreds of newspapers and were compiled at years end.Also overlooked by the Sporting News which unlike today the Sporting News was all baseball for decades.
                          It's far from a fantasy, I'm sure there were some errors but lets not make it more than what it was.

                          You can go to Proquest any time and review box scores going back to 1900.
                          It seems your intent, your attempt is to convince that MLB stats were as scant as or close to what we have in the history of black baseball, you fail.
                          Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 02-13-2015, 05:50 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by drstrangelove View Post
                            When I was growing up I found some interesting material on statistics from the major leagues. A large number of the stats I was told were correct, actually turned out to be wrong.


                            There were lots of errors. Pitchers wins were wrong, strikeouts were wrong, and there were no save statistics. Batter hits, HBP, batting averages, total bases and RBI's were wrong and there were no caught stealing statistics. (CS is still far from complete.)

                            Fielding stats were wrong, and data was missing in many eras for the players correct or full name. Even today there are many batters and pitchers listed without knowing which hand they threw with or which side of the plate they batted on.

                            When I grew up there were no easily accessed game logs prior to the 50's and no one had pitch counts past the 70's. Games on the west coast might not get reported in the most common eastern papers because the game was in progress when the eastern paper stopped publishing. That restricted actual full box scores sometimes to just a hand full of west coast papers.

                            Changes in official score keeping (errors to hits, hits to errors, crediting or removing an RBI, changing a SF) might not make it anywhere in a paper.



                            And the only reason some of that data exists today is because a lot of people spent a lot of time recreating it. Anyone who thinks MLB stats prior to 1950 are absolutely correct is living with a fantasy. NeL stats will be combed through and rebuilt as well as possible.
                            What do you mean by most common newspapers.
                            The NY times would carry box scores from the West coast the next day.
                            Two newspapers right here in Buffalo carried West coast box scores and even some game reviews the next day.

                            Your intent is so plain to see.
                            Since many speak about scant stats in black baseball, your going diminish the accuracy in MLB stats.
                            Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 02-13-2015, 05:58 PM.

                            Comment


                            • I have both the Macmillan Baseball Encyclopedia and Total Baseball Second Edition by John Thorne and Pete Palmer. I'm always astounded at the amount of data compiled. It's mind boggling. They do find an error occasionally, but essentially they are a complete and accurate accounting of MLB that is truly monumental. When we read data in either we know for certain that if a player won a batting award or slugging award we can assume that those awards are based on major league games only, not barnstorming or exhibition games. We can also assume that the requisite plate appearances or at-bat requirements were met; that is 3.1 (since 1957) plate appearances per team game originally scheduled.

                              http://www.amazon.com/The-Baseball-E.../dp/0028608151

                              http://www.amazon.com/Total-Baseball.../dp/1930844018

                              Anything published by the Elias Sports Bureau is also a great source:

                              http://www.esb.com/#



                              Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
                              What do you mean by most common newspapers.
                              The NY times would carry box scores from the West coast the next day.
                              Two newspapers right here in Buffalo carried West coast box scores and even some game reviews the next day.

                              Your intent is so plain to see.
                              Since many speak about scant stats in black baseball, your going diminish the accuracy in MLB stats.
                              ". . . the Ruth, the whole Ruth and nothing but the Ruth . . ."

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Badge714 View Post
                                I found some interesting material on statistics from the Negro Leagues. It appears that individual statistics include interleague games and games against strong independent clubs, barnstorming and exhibition games. Unfortunately the final accuracy of these results are nowhere near the stats provided by MLB. See below:

                                Negro League Data Sources
                                Sports Reference's Approach On NLB Data Presented

                                "This data comes from two sources: The Negro Leagues Researchers and Authors Group put together by the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum and Gary Ashwill and his collaborators. The Hall of Fame data is found for the years 1920-1948 and the Ashwill data is found from 1902-1919.

                                Official statistics were not tabulated for Negro League clubs. The statistics reported here have been constructed based upon newspaper accounts and other resources. Game accounts are not always complete and many are missing entirely, so the data are incomplete in many instances. Team totals are generally computed as the sum of player totals, and therefore are also partial.

                                The data presented here are based on currently available research; future research may lead to revisions as new information comes to light. Negro League clubs played significant numbers of interleague games and games against strong independent clubs. Individual statistics reported here can at times include many of these games, and therefore totals do not balance in categories. The won-lost records in the league standings tables reflect games which counted towards the championship; in some years, some leagues included games against selected strong independent clubs as counting towards the league standings.

                                This database is under active development. Many statistics are incomplete due to ongoing research and/or limitations in published sources, so please be assured that we are aware there are issues with the data and will continue to work with our data providers to improve the data that appears here."

                                And this:

                                "Description and Criteria (NBHFM)

                                Unfortunately, there are no official statistical sources for Negro Leagues Baseball. Much of the game-by-game detail was lost or seldom reported in the years following the demise of these leagues. However, during the past several decades there have been several attempts to collect and rebuild these statistics, mainly using data supplied by boxscores and game accounts published in the many African-American newspapers which existed during the past century. Unfortunately, due to the existence of multiple leagues, and team schedules which regularly included barnstorming and exhibition events, there is no general agreement on what should and should not be counted. Therefore, each of the data sets will contain different information, all premised upon the criteria established by the group or individuals involved.

                                For purposes of this database, the Negro League Researchers and Authors Group established a strict set of criteria for inclusion on this data set. Data is only included for league sanctioned games from 1920 to 1948 for which a published boxscore or credible scorebook existed. Statistics gleaned from game accounts alone without a supporting boxscore were not included in this study. Other games are acknowledged as being part of the African-American baseball story, but the data is not included here.

                                Component Findings:
                                •This dataset includes information from the following leagues Negro National League (NNL), Negro American League (NAL), American Negro League (ANL), East-West League (EWL), Negro Southern League (NSL), and the Eastern Colored League (ECL). Game data includes league games, all-star, playoff and World Series games.
                                •Some years we found every box score listed in the league schedule. Other years, less than 50% of the scheduled games were located. The year 1948 was determined to be the last year for the study because it was the last year of a sanctioned, official World Series.

                                Challenge Posed by Incomplete Statistics: (NBHFM)

                                Boxscore information:
                                •Microfilmed boxscores difficult to read because of poor print quality
                                •Sometimes game dates are difficult to identify
                                •Two newspapers covering the same game report different results
                                •Game text will mention players not listed in the boxscore
                                •Game text will differ from the boxscore data
                                •All positions are not listed, or two players are playing the same position
                                •Misspelled names
                                •Names are spelled phonetically
                                •Only Nickname listed
                                •No first name given
                                •Less than nine players listed

                                Batting:
                                •Total team hits do not equal total of individual hits
                                •Total team runs do not equal total of individual runs
                                •Sometimes at-bats are not listed
                                •Sometimes runs scored are not listed
                                •Sometimes RBIs are not listed
                                •Calculation of walks is a challenging task
                                •Sacrifice hits and sacrifice flies are not distinctively identified
                                •Sometimes sacrifices (hits and/or flies) are counted as at-bats
                                •Sometimes extra base hits are not listed
                                •Sometimes fielding errors are not listed
                                •Sometimes stolen bases are not listed
                                •Caught stealing is never listed in a boxscore
                                •Strikeouts by individual batters are not listed
                                •No hit batsmen are listed, making it difficult to calculate walks
                                •Pinch hitters and pinch runners are sometimes omitted
                                •No breakdown of defensive innings for multi-positions players
                                •Batting orders are not always sequential, with substitutes at the bottom

                                Pitching:
                                •Total team hits do not match total hits given up by pitcher(s)
                                •Total team runs do no match total runs given up by pitcher(s)
                                •Number of innings pitched not listed
                                •Breakdown of innings pitched by pitcher not available
                                •Breakdown of runs allowed not consistently listed
                                •Breakdown of earned runs not consistently listed
                                •Breakdown of hits allowed not consistently listed
                                •Breakdown of strikeouts not consistently listed
                                •Breakdown of walks not consistently listed
                                •Only the winning pitcher is listed
                                •Starting pitchers not always identified
                                •Some boxscores are totally void of pitching statistics"

                                Bingo. Some of these are just mind boggling.

                                So those who are "reconstructing" these league games...what information are THEY going off? I'm confused.
                                Last edited by Sultan_1895-1948; 02-13-2015, 06:50 PM.

                                Comment

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