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Mike Piazza vs Josh Gibson

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  • Originally posted by Stolensingle View Post
    Do you really think that no one in the history of the Negro Leagues would have been a top 10 hitter in MLB history? Because Gibson was the consensus best hitter in the NeL, and if he wasn’t better than Piazza, then I guess no one was, and that means no one was in the top 10.
    Buzz Arlett was a top minor-league hitter, does transplanting him into the majors automatically make him a top-10 MLB hitter?

    The point is we do not, cannot, and will not EVER know. This is conjecture. For all we know if Piazza played in the NeL he'd be storied as having hit 700 ft. homeruns once every 2 at-bats
    "The first draft of anything is crap." - Ernest Hemingway

    There's no such thing as an ultimate stat.

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    • Originally posted by 1905 Giants View Post
      Umm no, that is not true. The actual size of the voting population is VERY relevant. Random sampling is of course a must but randomly asking millions of people WILL give you more valid data than just hundreds.
      Maybe I wasn't clear enough. The larger the sample size, the more precise the estimate, but the point I was making was, for a given random sample size, the size of the population being sampled is irrelevant. The error in a sample of 500 is the same whether it comes from one million or one hundred million.

      Originally posted by 1905 Giants View Post
      Buzz Arlett was a top minor-league hitter, does transplanting him into the majors automatically make him a top-10 MLB hitter?

      The point is we do not, cannot, and will not EVER know. This is conjecture. For all we know if Piazza played in the NeL he'd be storied as having hit 700 ft. homeruns once every 2 at-bats
      But most of the top hitters in MLB history have been great minor league hitters. So is your point that, yes, someone in the NeL was definitely better than Piazza, but it might not have been Josh Gibson?
      Last edited by Stolensingle; 02-14-2015, 08:29 PM.

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      • The name "Buzz Artlett" needs to be banned from any discussion about the Negro Leagues. His case is a dictionary definition of the term "red herring."
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        • Originally posted by Los Bravos View Post
          The name "Buzz Artlett" needs to be banned from any discussion about the Negro Leagues. His case is a dictionary definition of the term "red herring."
          Yeah, especially since its spelled Arlett.
          "The first draft of anything is crap." - Ernest Hemingway

          There's no such thing as an ultimate stat.

          Comment


          • Red Herring according to Merriam-Webster:
            "something that distracts attention from the real issue".

            I am not attempting to distract from the real issue. I am pointing out that when he played briefly in the majors Arlett proved capable as a batsmen. Who's to say he wasn't capable of being top-10 or not? Same with Gibson. For all we know he could have been top-10 sure, but he could have flopped. We don't KNOW. Its a scientific principle that we can never definitively PROVE anything. But in t his case its turned a notch sharper, and we can CERTAINLY not prove that a guy who never played an inning in MLB baseball would be a top-ten player/hitter against guys who actually did play in the leagues in question.
            Last edited by 1905 Giants; 02-14-2015, 08:59 PM.
            "The first draft of anything is crap." - Ernest Hemingway

            There's no such thing as an ultimate stat.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Los Bravos View Post
              The name "Buzz Artlett" needs to be banned from any discussion about the Negro Leagues. His case is a dictionary definition of the term "red herring."
              No, it really isn't.
              My top 10 players:

              1. Babe Ruth
              2. Barry Bonds
              3. Ty Cobb
              4. Ted Williams
              5. Willie Mays
              6. Alex Rodriguez
              7. Hank Aaron
              8. Honus Wagner
              9. Lou Gehrig
              10. Mickey Mantle

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              • Originally posted by 1905 Giants View Post
                Buzz Arlett was a top minor-league hitter, does transplanting him into the majors automatically make him a top-10 MLB hitter?

                The point is we do not, cannot, and will not EVER know. This is conjecture. For all we know if Piazza played in the NeL he'd be storied as having hit 700 ft. homeruns once every 2 at-bats
                post of the month.

                The bolded part is the point that many of us try to make.
                This week's Giant

                #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

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                • Let's take a step back and re-group.

                  The only thing I was referencing, was Gibson's league games, 16 games and 66 PA. That is such a tiny sample size.

                  Not just Piazza but many other players had spans that long, or longer, with more impressive stats against much tougher competition.

                  And there's still the question yet to be answered, about the "published" boxscores. My feeling is they worded that specifically so people wouldn't ask questions, but it seems suspicious....most of the boxscores were problematic.

                  "Piazza top 40-50 hitter"...I wonder what the hell you're looking at. Makes ZERO sense. Do you realize how deep 40-50 goes?

                  He's easily the top offensive catcher of all-time, and he's a better hitter than Simmons, Griffey, Stargell, Greenberg, McCovey, Schmidt, RJackson, CJones, LWalker, Rice, Gwynn, Boggs, FThomas, VGuerrero, McGriff, Kaline, FHoward.

                  It's funny such leeway is afforded to Negro Leaguers. Hell, suspension of disbelief in most cases....yet when we have a proven commodity against legit and structured competition, it's poo-poo'ed. Funny.

                  Comment


                  • Arlett was a minor leaguer. The Negro Leagues were not a minor league.
                    "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

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                    • Sorry I got irritable there.
                      "The first draft of anything is crap." - Ernest Hemingway

                      There's no such thing as an ultimate stat.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by 1905 Giants View Post
                        I am not attempting to distract from the real issue.
                        I'm not questioning your motives but that case, ultimately, is pointless if it's used as some sort of cudgel against Gibson or any other NeLer.

                        Big zinger on my typing finger slip, by the way :applaud:
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                        • Originally posted by Los Bravos View Post
                          Big zinger on my typing finger slip, by the way :applaud:
                          Yeah sorry about that.
                          "The first draft of anything is crap." - Ernest Hemingway

                          There's no such thing as an ultimate stat.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sultan_1895-1948 View Post
                            Let's take a step back and re-group.

                            The only thing I was referencing, was Gibson's league games, 16 games and 66 PA. That is such a tiny sample size.

                            Not just Piazza but many other players had spans that long, or longer, with more impressive stats against much tougher competition.

                            And there's still the question yet to be answered, about the "published" boxscores. My feeling is they worded that specifically so people wouldn't ask questions, but it seems suspicious....most of the boxscores were problematic.

                            "Piazza top 40-50 hitter"...I wonder what the hell you're looking at. Makes ZERO sense. Do you realize how deep 40-50 goes?

                            He's easily the top offensive catcher of all-time, and he's a better hitter than Simmons, Griffey, Stargell, Greenberg, McCovey, Schmidt, RJackson, CJones, LWalker, Rice, Gwynn, Boggs, FThomas, VGuerrero, McGriff, Kaline, FHoward.

                            It's funny such leeway is afforded to Negro Leaguers. Hell, suspension of disbelief in most cases....yet when we have a proven commodity against legit and structured competition, it's poo-poo'ed. Funny.
                            It's part of seamheads and BB-Ref's. conspiracy to elevate the NeL players. You should present at SABR. It would surely send shockwaves through the historical baseball community to find out that the two outlets most highly involved in the largest group historical research effort since the MacMillan encyclopedia are doing it under false pretenses, sly word play and outright lies. You can private message our own Brian McKenna and TonyK. They are involved. Surely once they know you're onto them the lies will stop.
                            "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                            Comment


                            • Fair enough. I'm sorry if I left the impression that I thought your intent was malign, because I don't, but that case gets brought up a lot around here and while it's sort of applicable in the abstract (i.e., it's hard to know what would have actually happened in either case), it's ultimately more of a distraction than an illumination.
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                              • Originally posted by Los Bravos View Post
                                Fair enough. I'm sorry if I left the impression that I thought your intent was malign, because I don't, but that case gets brought up a lot around here and while it's sort of applicable in the abstract (i.e., it's hard to know what would have actually happened in either case), it's ultimately more of a distraction than an illumination.
                                I can accept that.
                                "The first draft of anything is crap." - Ernest Hemingway

                                There's no such thing as an ultimate stat.

                                Comment

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