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Mike Piazza vs Josh Gibson

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  • Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
    "WAR" takes on a new meaning for those guys. Do they have advanced military metrics? They probably have WARG, wins above replacement general.
    Would a really good full bird be better than just a replacement general? Hmmm.
    "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

    Comment


    • The bottom 6 pictures of Gibson's swing looks really unnatural to me. The first person I thought of when I saw Gibson in his stance is Mel Ott. With where Gibson's front foot is in the first picture and the way his weight is distributed I see him having a relatively high leg kick for timing and a short stride with a slight uppercut in his swing. Keeping himself in that crouch seemingly forever and uncoiling on the ball really fast.
      "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
        For relative performance to his era to be a valid measure of comparison it presupposes that the baseline being measured against is the same across all of baseball history. Basically, it assumes that the level or quality of baseball has remained stable throughout baseball history.
        No. It assumes that a (theoretical, impossible) actual head-to-head meeting is not the only framework for comparison. That relative greatness can be seen as, or more, important than absolute greatness (if the absolutes were even measurable, which they are not).

        Think of it this way: who is the "greater" inventor, E.A. Johnson (capacitive touchscreen), or Thomas Edison?
        Last edited by Pere; 02-18-2015, 09:28 AM.

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        • Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
          The bottom 6 pictures of Gibson's swing looks really unnatural to me. The first person I thought of when I saw Gibson in his stance is Mel Ott. With where Gibson's front foot is in the first picture and the way his weight is distributed I see him having a relatively high leg kick for timing and a short stride with a slight uppercut in his swing. Keeping himself in that crouch seemingly forever and uncoiling on the ball really fast.
          I've had the same thought. Assuming these pictures are the same swing I don't understand how the bat swing path got from the 3rd photo to the 4th photo. In the 3rd photo the end of the bat appears to be about the level of Josh's belt but suddenly in the 4th photo the end of the bat is above his head? Then in the 5th photo the end of the bat is about shoulder level?

          There are only two photos I have seen of Josh in mid swing in an actual game.

          Gibson 1.jpg...Gibson 26.jpg
          Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 02-18-2015, 09:30 AM.
          Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

          Comment


          • Those are the only two photos I've ever seen as well.

            Originally posted by drstrangelove View Post
            I think SBC did this 6 pages ago.

            Here are most (I think) of the players that actually played in the NeL and MLB.

            Jackie Robinson
            Larry Doby
            Roy Campanella
            Monte Irvin
            Willie Mays
            Ernie Banks
            Hank Aaron
            Luke Easter
            Minnie Minoso
            Don Newcombe
            Hank Thompson
            Junior Gilliam
            Satchel Paige
            Sam Jethroe
            Bob Boyd
            Connie Johnson
            Joe Black
            Sandy Amoros
            Al Smith

            These players won 6 rookie of the year awards. They also won 10 MVP awards, which is impressive---but even more so when you consider that:
            1) most were in the same league competing for the same award
            2) many weren't allowed to play in the majors until age 28, or 33, or 41.


            This is your opinion. You think it's an assumption. You're baffled. You think it's a crap shoot. Just because you can't or won't do something doesn't mean others can't do it and won't do it well.

            I don't see the point:

            1) people who believe there were great Black players, who believe the NeL stats are worth using, who believe the quotes of MLB players who saw them, and who can see the statistical evidence from 1947-1965 will have little problems ranking NeL players with pre-integration players.

            2) people who have already stated their views that MLB opinions about NeL players are worthless, that NeL stats are worthless, and that most NeL players were worse than single A have no basis to rank anyone in the NeL. Based upon what would they rank?

            One can't really spend all morning arguing that all the evidence to rank them is invalid, then rank them in the afternoon.
            Not to mention that NeL players played better in the AAA & AA minors while past their primes than they did in the NeL's in their primes.
            Last edited by bluesky5; 02-18-2015, 09:31 AM.
            "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

            Comment


            • Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
              The bottom 6 pictures of Gibson's swing looks really unnatural to me.
              Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
              I've had the same thought. Assuming these pictures are the same swing I don't understand how the bat swing path got from the 3rd photo to the 4th photo.
              I doubt that these are frames of an actual swing at all.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Pere View Post
                I doubt that these are frames of an actual swing at all.
                Why do you say that? The caption says it is six stages of Gibson's swing.
                Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                Comment


                • Because it looks strange and disjointed, as you said--both in the mechanics of the "swing" itself, and in the angles and framing of the images. What kind of photographic technique causes the viewed angle of the ground to change from frame to frame in a short continuous shot?

                  More likely each "stage" was posed and shot on its own, with no genuine motion between. Artificially-posed baseball "action" would have been more the norm than the exception at the time (and earlier), anyway.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by JR Hart View Post
                    "WAR" takes on a new meaning for those guys. Do they have advanced military metrics? They probably have WARG, wins above replacement general.
                    I assume this is rhetorical. But they of course look at everything they can and weigh all the evidence, even from 2,300 years ago. The battle of Cannae (Hannibal) is considered brilliant and forced the Romans to completely revamp their military tactics. Hannibal himself had other campaigns and battles that nearly brought Rome to it's knees.

                    The point is that some historians examine all information as potentially useful as opposed to first arguing that everything was automatically false, worthless and to be censored if it didn't match modern day thoughts. One can always disregard things after one has good cause to do so. But some people start first with discarding, then when nothing is left, they use that as proof that it was right to discard in the first place.
                    Last edited by drstrangelove; 02-18-2015, 05:49 PM.
                    "It's better to look good, than be good."

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Pere View Post
                      Because it looks strange and disjointed, as you said--both in the mechanics of the "swing" itself, and in the angles and framing of the images. What kind of photographic technique causes the viewed angle of the ground to change from frame to frame in a short continuous shot?

                      More likely each "stage" was posed and shot on its own, with no genuine motion between. Artificially-posed baseball "action" would have been more the norm than the exception at the time (and earlier), anyway.
                      Good points.
                      "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Herr28 View Post
                        Would a really good full bird be better than just a replacement general? Hmmm.
                        Not if he was a black bird.
                        "He's tougher than a railroad sandwich."
                        "You'se Got The Eye Of An Eagle."

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by TonyK View Post
                          Not if he was a black bird.
                          Well, it really depends on his handedness.
                          "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Herr28 View Post
                            Well, it really depends on his handedness.
                            What if he is a red bird?
                            "He's tougher than a railroad sandwich."
                            "You'se Got The Eye Of An Eagle."

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by TonyK View Post
                              What if he is a red bird?
                              Oh well, no further debate is necessary. Clearly he is the best. . .
                              "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Herr28 View Post
                                Oh well, no further debate is necessary. Clearly he is the best. . .
                                I get it now...a full red bird beats an empty general and definitely trumps a blue bird.
                                "He's tougher than a railroad sandwich."
                                "You'se Got The Eye Of An Eagle."

                                Comment

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