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Mike Piazza vs Josh Gibson

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  • #76
    Josh Gibson was a very solid defensive catcher, with a strong arm. He wasn't on Campanella's level or Berra's level defensively, but by most accounts he was very good. He was an incredible hitter. The question is, can we be absolutely certain that Gibson could hit as well as Ruth/Gehrig? Maybe....

    Can we be absolutely certain that Ruth/Gehrig were as good as Mantle/Mays, considering league quality? Absolutely not, in my opinion.

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    • #77
      I guess it comes down to how "incredible" Gibson's hitting really was. For 10 seasons (1993-02) Piazza averaged:

      137 G, 566 PA, .322/.389/.579, 155 OPS+, 35 HR, 107 RBI, 85 R, 162 H, 25 doubles, 56 BB, 79 K

      Per 162 games Piazza averaged:

      162 G, 668 PA, .322/.389/.579, 155 OPS+, 41 HR, 126 RBI, 100 R, 192 H, 30 doubles, 66 BB, 94 K

      Could Gibson have done this over 10 major league seasons?
      Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

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      • #78
        Originally posted by 3and2Fastball View Post
        I'm not completely convinced that MLB teams were better than the best Negro League teams of the 10's-30's....
        The point has been and remains, we have stats recorded from MLB.
        How many times do we go down this road, we have to have some stats, what your saying is just an opinion.
        No doubt there were some hitters and pitchers as good as white MLB, we have to look at the whole pitcher.

        Buck O'Neil stated there were black hitters the equal of MLB hitters but overall black pitching was not on the level of MLB pitching.
        Pitching staffs were lean, in some games a reliever might be a position player, outfielder, infielder.
        We know who Piazza played with in his era, the hitters and pitchers.
        Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 02-09-2015, 06:02 PM.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Los Bravos View Post
          Let's also not be patronizing.
          My opinion LB.
          Very possible some lean one way because of the injustice to blacks, it's human nature.I do say possible.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Cowtipper View Post
            Can't really compare a guy who spent much of his career playing exhibition and amateur quality games, whose argument is based largely on anecdotal and apocryphal evidence, in leagues that might not have even touched the quality of our minor leagues, with a guy who spent his career in the established, well-known highest level of baseball in the entire world.
            No, can't be done.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
              No, can't be done.
              That post you quoted is uninformed, cliche and narrow minded.
              Last edited by bluesky5; 02-09-2015, 06:05 PM.
              "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

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              • #82
                Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
                That post you quoted is uninformed, cliche and narrow minded.
                Looking at the gap in the poll numbers, I'm not alone.
                If more could accept the small amount of stats and praise, word of mouth with higher value, the poll numbers might be reversed..............or even close, but thats not the case.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
                  Looking at the gap in the poll numbers, I'm not alone.
                  If more could accept the small amount of stats and praise, word of mouth with higher value, the poll numbers might be reversed..............or even close, but thats not the case.
                  Folks generally don't know a lot about the Negro Leagues. It's just the way it is. Doesn't make the available information bad.
                  "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Josh Gibson career stats

                    Gibson career stats.jpg


                    Mike Piazza career stats

                    Piazza career stats.jpg
                    Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 02-09-2015, 06:33 PM.
                    Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
                      Folks generally don't know a lot about the Negro Leagues. It's just the way it is. Doesn't make the available information bad.
                      Not sure how far we're going with this one.
                      Is your opinion that the 22 members or most that voted for Piazza don't know as much as some that voted for Gibson.

                      I don't see it, the claims about the stats dug up now available.
                      Gibson just for example, if I recall what I saw, around 2300 at bats, thats about 4 seasons in MLB.
                      I've seen three or four lifetime batting averages and total home runs, all different.

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                      • #86
                        I remember seeing claims of over 800(?!) Career homers for Gibson, and either 75 or 84 in one yr. Guiness Record book citings 80's. Who knows, but those stats
                        Sound pretty loony toons to me. That's what you wind up facing with some of the Negro League players, Paul Bunyanish tales. Mind I've not come across the 'Gibson hit 75' claim in some time, but it was out there.

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
                          Not sure how far we're going with this one.
                          Is your opinion that the 22 members or most that voted for Piazza don't know as much as some that voted for Gibson.

                          I don't see it, the claims about the stats dug up now available.
                          Gibson just for example, if I recall what I saw, around 2300 at bats, thats about 4 seasons in MLB.
                          I've seen three or four lifetime batting averages and total home runs, all different.
                          No. There was no secret meaning. I was referring to the veracity of the information available on the Negro Leagues. You don't believe it? How is it different than back in the day when they dug up stats on 19th c. and deadball players for the MacMillan Encyclopedia?

                          Originally posted by Bucketfoot View Post
                          I remember seeing claims of over 800(?!) Career homers for Gibson, and either 75 or 84 in one yr. Guiness Record book citings 80's. Who knows, but those stats
                          Sound pretty loony toons to me. That's what you wind up facing with some of the Negro League players, Paul Bunyanish tales. Mind I've not come across the 'Gibson hit 75' claim in some time, but it was out there.
                          The stats at seamheads and BB-Ref. are against black major league competition only. The 800 HR number is including exhibitions and barnstorming.
                          Last edited by bluesky5; 02-09-2015, 07:04 PM.
                          "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            I don't really understand how some people get to 800 career home runs for Gibson even if we count all of Gibson's barnstorming games. Maybe I can believe that if Gibson played in the Negro Leagues/Latin America/barnstorming for like 25+ years like a few Negro Leaguers did. (Oscar Charleston played from 1915-1941 for example, 27 seasons). But Gibson died at age 35, played his last baseball season at age 34. He played baseball for 17 seasons. He'd need to average 47 HR's per season to get to 800 home runs in 17 seasons. Well now that I think about it more I suppose it's possible if he were playing 130-150 games a year. Did he play that many games every season for 17 seasons?
                            Last edited by Honus Wagner Rules; 02-09-2015, 07:05 PM.
                            Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls - it's more democratic.-Crash Davis

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
                              I don't really understand how some people get to 800 career home runs for Gibson even if we count all of Gibson's barnstorming games. Maybe I can believe that if Gibson played in the Negro Leagues/Latin America/barnstorming for like 25+ years like a few Negro Leaguers did. (Oscar Charleston played from 1915-1941 for example). But Gibson died at age 35, played his last baseball season at age 34. He played baseball for 17 seasons. He'd need to average 47 HR's per season to get to 800 home runs in 17 seasons. Well now that think about it more I suppose it's possible if he were playing 130-150 games a year. Did he play that many games every season for 17 seasons?
                              No possible way. The leagues were like 30 or 40 games and players bounced around. They couldn't keep track of all 18 players, let alone how many dingers were hit. It's a nice round number and it's more than 755 so maybe that's when the exaggerations started?

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Honus Wagner Rules View Post
                                I don't really understand how some people get to 800 career home runs for Gibson even if we count all of Gibson's barnstorming games. Maybe I can believe that if Gibson played in the Negro Leagues/Latin America/barnstorming for like 25+ years like a few Negro Leaguers did. (Oscar Charleston played from 1915-1941 for example, 27 seasons). But Gibson died at age 35, played his last baseball season at age 34. He played baseball for 17 seasons. He'd need to average 47 HR's per season to get to 800 home runs in 17 seasons. Well now that think about it more I suppose it's possible if he were playing 130-150 games a year. Did he play that many games every season for 17 seasons?
                                Every negro leaguer of note played multiple winters in the Caribbean. Guys like Mendez, Torriente, Dolf Luque, etc. came north too. Some, like Perucho Cepeda, never did because they didn't want to deal with the racism here. But yea the 800 is an exaggeration in my opinion.
                                Last edited by bluesky5; 02-09-2015, 07:08 PM.
                                "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                                Comment

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