Mike Piazza vs Josh Gibson

[Los Bravos]

Could Gibson have done this over 10 major league seasons?

Well, they didn't have Dianabol then, so...

My opinion LB.

And you have every right to it but when you adopt a patronizing tone to those who disagree with you, that is a different matter. I don't care that you disagree with some of us. I do care that you make a blanket assumption that none of us really know what we're talking about and are instead handing out the equivalent of participation trophies because of historical guilt.

I've had multiple bellysfull of this attitude around here of late and I, for one, do not appreciate it.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I remember seeing claims of over 800(?!) Career homers for Gibson, and either 75 or 84 in one yr. Guiness Record book citings 80's. Who knows, but those stats
Sound pretty loony toons to me. That's what you wind up facing with some of the Negro League players, Paul Bunyanish tales. Mind I've not come across the 'Gibson hit 75' claim in some time, but it was out there.

I remember reading the Guinness Book of World Records saying this back in the late 1970's.

[Los Bravos]

So do I. Pretty sure it was the first time I ever knew Gibson's name.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

No. There was no secret meaning. I was referring to the veracity of the information available on the Negro Leagues. You don't believe it? How is it different than back in the day when they dug up stats on 19th c. and deadball players for the MacMillan Encyclopedia?



The stats at seamheads and BB-Ref. are against black major league competition only. The 800 HR number is including exhibitions and barnstorming.

Here is a pic of the great Josh, Chicago Defender 1940, black newspaper.

Not a sales pitch but I pay 40 bucks a year to Mid Continent Library, worth every penny. Access to Proquest, news archives.
Access, Chicago Tribune, NY Times, Washington Post, LA Times, going back to 1860-70. Also black newspapers, Chicago Defender and Pittsburgh Courier. The most accurate accounts of games, written up a day later. Not subject to faulty accounts written years later.
For the last few weeks I've been lost in those two black newspapers, great write ups, stories you won't find anywhere else.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Ok, I've been doing some digging around I'm starting to wonder if the Guinness Book of World Records itself was actually the book that started the narrative about Gibson hitting 800 home runs? I found this newspaper article and and a short article in Jet Magazine from 1977. This was around the time that Sadaharu Oh was closing in on Hank Aaron's 755 home runs.


The Observer-Reporter, August 23, 1977

1977-08-23 Oberver-Reporter pg B-4.jpg


Who are these "special people" who researched Josh Gibson's career?




Jet Magazine, September 3, 1977

1977-09-03 Jet pg 53.jpg

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Well, they didn't have Dianabol then, so...

And you have every right to it but when you adopt a patronizing tone to those who disagree with you, that is a different matter. I don't care that you disagree with some of us. I do care that you make a blanket assumption that none of us really know what we're talking about and are instead handing out the equivalent of participation trophies because of historical guilt.

I've had multiple bellysfull of this attitude around here of late and I, for one, do not appreciate it.

Never in my post on this thread or any thread going back years did I say any member did not know what they were talking about. I've had that said about me over the years, not often but a few times, cluelessJoe.
In my post I use the word some, thats not a blanket statement.
Using the word guilt was not my word, thats taking it too far.
I stick to my guns, never pointing the finger at anyone member.
I did say it's "possible" that the injustice to the blacks could effect some.
Again, it's called human nature, it is possible.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

No possible way. The leagues were like 30 or 40 games and players bounced around. They couldn't keep track of all 18 players, let alone how many dingers were hit. It's a nice round number and it's more than 755 so maybe that's when the exaggerations started?

Wow....woot woot....personal horn tooted. Never saw those articles. Great gets guys. Yup...seems there was a definite push to make up some numbers. What a shame. A disservice to Gibson who was probably a damn fine slugger. He probably felt a bit guilty they all made him out to be something he wasn't.

[Los Bravos]

Using the word guilt was not my word, thats taking it too far.

That is my characterization but your words "Let's lead with the head not the heart" seems to lead to that conclusion.

[Los Bravos]

His Hall of Fame plaque, which dates from 1972, reads "...almost 800 home runs in league and independent baseball..."

So, so much for Guiness making up a PC lie after Aaron's retirement.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Wow....woot woot....personal horn tooted. Never saw those articles. Great gets guys. Yup...seems there was a definite push to make up some numbers. What a shame. A disservice to Gibson who was probably a damn fine slugger. He probably felt a bit guilty they all made him out to be something he wasn't.

Ironically, Gibson's name surfaced again when McGwire and Sosa were going crazy in 1998. I found these articles from late Septmeber 1998.

1998-09-05 Milwaukee Journal Sentinel pg 2C.jpg


1998-09-20 The Spokesman-Review pg B10.jpg


1998-09-29 Sarasota Herald-Tribune pg 3C.jpg

[Los Bravos]

The conspiracy is so vast and far reaching...

[Honus Wagner Rules]

His Hall of Fame plaque, which dates from 1972, reads "...almost 800 home runs in league and independent baseball..."

So, so much for Guiness making up a PC lie after Aaron's retirement.

Good catch Los Braves. So this pushes the 800 home runs narrative back to at least 1972. I'll need to expand my research now.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

This 1972 articles says Gibson hit 623 home runs. I've never seen that number before.

Times Daily, February 8, 1972, pg 10

1972-02-08 Times Daily pg 10.jpg

[drstrangelove]

I know that:

1) Gibson was considered the most dangerous hitter in the NeL
2) 50% of all the cream of the crop (best) players in baseball were in the NeL between 1930-1946
3) That makes Gibson among the most dangerous hitters in 1930-1946 for the combined ML and NeL
4) Meanwhile, Piazza was only the 15th best hitter in 1993-2006 using OPS+

That makes Gibson better than Piazza as a hitter.


The only way to argue that Piazza is better is to believe that:

1) all hitters in 1993-2006 were on the whole much better than the hitters of 1930-1946. I know that some of you for a fact do not believe this. We can list post after post showing that you don't believe this for a second.

Or

2) or, that the best white hitters in 1930-1946 were substantially better hitters than the best Black hitters in 1930-1946, and then a few months later, Black players started playing MLB and suddenly were hitting the most homers, winning the best awards, dominating ASG appearances.


Exactly on what date to Black players becomes superstars capable of dominating MVP votes, ROY votes, win-shares, WAR and WAA? What was the cause of this change? Aliens?



I find it ironic that people who are emotionally tied to a belief that players were all better in the early 1930's, must use aliens to explain a choice of the 15th best hitter in 2000 over one of the best hitters in the 1930's.


You cant have your cake and eat it too.jpeg

[Los Bravos]

How about if we all agree that it was significantly more than 200, at least as a starting point? That seems like a basic signpost of good faith.