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Mike Piazza vs Josh Gibson

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  • Originally posted by Herr28 View Post
    I stopped coming back to this thread last night because I couldn't tell if people were being serious when they asked questions about Gibson's career or the Negro Leagues, or if they were just making fun of the whole thing. Sultan, nobody here is calling anybody else a racist. Nobody here is hiding behind race or anything ridiculous like that. So can you stop with those comments? No need to drag the site down with such nonsense.

    Stolensingle posted Gibson's career HR/AB of 10.6, which leads all Negro League hitters and is well ahead of #2 Mule Suttles at 13.6. This is on his baseball-reference.com bullpen page, not some scary black baseball propaganda website. It isn't held in some secret compartment in the basement of conspiracy theory HQ, guarded by baffoons in tinfoil hats. That same page names Suttles as the #1 in career home runs, Gibson #2, but Josh is also #3 in lifetime batting average among those players with 2000 league at-bats. At no time do any of these statistics count anything that happened while playing non-league games. No exhibitions, barnstorming, or games with teams in other countries. I know some can get real confused by all of that, but rest assured that there are people digging into the league games to pull out these stats.

    So here is Josh Gibson, a catcher, who is the #2 man in career home runs, #1 in career HR/AB, and #3 in career batting average (.003 points behind leader Judd Wilson, .001 point behind #2 John Beckwith), and we have people here doubting he was one of the greatest hitters in baseball history? On top of that, on that same user-friendly, mainstream, non-scary-tinfoil-hat website of baseball-reference, Gibson is listed as going 21 for 56 (.375) against major league pitching.
    The problem with me ranking NLers, which I try to avoid is that we can't tell the whole story. That 21 for 56 BA against MLB pitching is a small sample. Not saying he wasn't a .300 hitter, or that he didn't have the potential of being a 500 HR guy. Heck, I even acknowledge Gibson on being the NLer who's most able to sustain his level if he changed leagues. But we cannot tell everything for sure.
    "I am not too serious about anything. I believe you have to enjoy yourself to get the most out of your ability."-
    George Brett

    Comment


    • Originally posted by drstrangelove View Post
      No, actually you are.

      Gibson was regarded as the best hitter of his era within the NeL. The top 5-10 hitters in the NeL were equal to the top 5-10 in MLB. His level is therefore equivalent to someone who was considered the best hitter of his era. That ranks him above Piazza.
      Piazza was amazing for a catcher----but few people seem to realize he never led the league in a single offensive category. Pretty unimpressive for someone who is the best. (He led in OPS+ 2 times, but since most people ignore that metric, we're going to go by those rules.)

      Gibson was dominant. Piazza wasn't.




      Nope. During Rice's career Mike Schmidt, George Brett, Eddie Murray, Don Mattingly, Pedro Guerrero, and Reggie Jackson were considered more dangerous. And for those that took into account Rice's Coors Field advantage (115-85), he was downgraded even farther. Don't be revisionist. Playing in Fenway as a RH flyball hitter doesn't "make" you the best hitter anymore than playing football as an adult with 8 year old's makes you Jim Brown.




      News flash. Piazza used PEDs. He's already said so. So that straw man can go back to the corn field.



      Yes. A response to one of my points. So, they were just as good back then as they are now---and Gibson was considered one the most dangerous in that era in the NeL when they were just as good as they are now. So, he would therefore be one of the most dangerous in Piazza's era. That makes him a better hitter than Piazza who was surpassed by many other hitters.



      Well, if this is your key point then it applies to everyone in the 1920-1946 period since none of them played in the 1993-2006 period. All of them could have been as good as Foxx or Manush or a bench player. "You" do not know.

      There were real people who really saw Gibson play and really played against him who also really played against DiMaggio, Musial, Williams, and Foxx, and who were really impressed that he was an exceptionally dangerous hitter. So we do know.

      Some people refuse what's obvious without a number or a video to look at:

      They didn't have IQ tests back when Einstein invented his theories. Do we know if he was smart?
      They didn't have video cameras back when Napoleon commanded his armies. Do we know if he was a good general?
      They didn't have DNA tests back when Columbus landed in the Caribbean. Do we know if those were really Native Americans?
      They haven't actually been on the sun? Do we really know if it's hot?

      Some people will never know what they don't want to know. World turns.
      People watching him play and giving their opinion means next to nothing when judging what kind of major league career he might have had. How many times have scouts, who judge talent professionally been completely wrong about a 'can't miss prospect'? How many first round draft picks haven't done well in the majors? Chuck Klein was considered a hitter on par with Ruth when he was in his prime, but we now know this to be simply untrue. The bottom line is we need stats in major league games, against major league competition in order to make any kind of judgment.
      And yes, Rice WAS considered the best and most dangerous hitter in the game in the late 1970s. If you had suggested that Schmidt or Jackson or Brett was better you would have been laughed at...he was not just considered the best in the game, but already an all time great ala Williams or Gehrig, or at least well on his way to becoming one. Nobody cared about his home field Fenway advantage (No, he didn't play in Coors). This is a guy that we HAD stats for, and people were still totally wrong about him.
      Piazza was a juicer? This is news to me. Apparently it's also news to everyone else, since he got 70% of the votes for the HOF from the same guys who won't let Bonds or Clemens come close.

      Comment


      • I've never had any doubt as to Gibson's hitting talents. His career was shortened from illness and drug abuse. It is said that he was severely depressed over not being allowed to play MLB. His knees were also shot around age 33 from the thousands of games caught over the years....

        Personally if I was starting a team and had a young Josh Gibson (yes, in a time machine) I'd probably just play him at 1B. It is true that a catcher who can hit like that is incredibly valuable, especially when it is easier to find slugging 1B's than C's, but I think I'd want to prolong his greatness, keep him in the lineup every day etc

        Comment


        • Originally posted by drstrangelove View Post
          I know that:

          1) Gibson was considered the most dangerous hitter in the NeL
          2) 50% of all the cream of the crop (best) players in baseball were in the NeL between 1930-1946
          3) That makes Gibson among the most dangerous hitters in 1930-1946 for the combined ML and NeL
          4) Meanwhile, Piazza was only the 15th best hitter in 1993-2006 using OPS+

          That makes Gibson better than Piazza as a hitter.


          The only way to argue that Piazza is better is to believe that:

          1) all hitters in 1993-2006 were on the whole much better than the hitters of 1930-1946. I know that some of you for a fact do not believe this. We can list post after post showing that you don't believe this for a second.

          Or

          2) or, that the best white hitters in 1930-1946 were substantially better hitters than the best Black hitters in 1930-1946, and then a few months later, Black players started playing MLB and suddenly were hitting the most homers, winning the best awards, dominating ASG appearances.


          Exactly on what date to Black players becomes superstars capable of dominating MVP votes, ROY votes, win-shares, WAR and WAA? What was the cause of this change? Aliens?



          I find it ironic that people who are emotionally tied to a belief that players were all better in the early 1930's, must use aliens to explain a choice of the 15th best hitter in 2000 over one of the best hitters in the 1930's.


          [ATTACH]145687[/ATTACH]
          Excellent post. Unfortunately it seems that only the legendary white players of pre-1950 were the greatest baseball players ever. Those that were black were not that great, because we can only trust numbers that don't exist. None of the legendary white players/executives/managers/coaches/writers not a one of them could assess talent when it came to black players, apparently.

          Originally posted by drstrangelove View Post
          No, actually you are.

          Gibson was regarded as the best hitter of his era within the NeL. The top 5-10 hitters in the NeL were equal to the top 5-10 in MLB. His level is therefore equivalent to someone who was considered the best hitter of his era. That ranks him above Piazza.
          Piazza was amazing for a catcher----but few people seem to realize he never led the league in a single offensive category. Pretty unimpressive for someone who is the best. (He led in OPS+ 2 times, but since most people ignore that metric, we're going to go by those rules.)

          Gibson was dominant. Piazza wasn't.

          Nope. During Rice's career Mike Schmidt, George Brett, Eddie Murray, Don Mattingly, Pedro Guerrero, and Reggie Jackson were considered more dangerous. And for those that took into account Rice's Coors Field advantage (115-85), he was downgraded even farther. Don't be revisionist. Playing in Fenway as a RH flyball hitter doesn't "make" you the best hitter anymore than playing football as an adult with 8 year old's makes you Jim Brown.

          News flash. Piazza used PEDs. He's already said so. So that straw man can go back to the corn field.

          Yes. A response to one of my points. So, they were just as good back then as they are now---and Gibson was considered one the most dangerous in that era in the NeL when they were just as good as they are now. So, he would therefore be one of the most dangerous in Piazza's era. That makes him a better hitter than Piazza who was surpassed by many other hitters.

          Well, if this is your key point then it applies to everyone in the 1920-1946 period since none of them played in the 1993-2006 period. All of them could have been as good as Foxx or Manush or a bench player. "You" do not know.

          There were real people who really saw Gibson play and really played against him who also really played against DiMaggio, Musial, Williams, and Foxx, and who were really impressed that he was an exceptionally dangerous hitter. So we do know.

          Some people refuse what's obvious without a number or a video to look at:

          They didn't have IQ tests back when Einstein invented his theories. Do we know if he was smart?
          They didn't have video cameras back when Napoleon commanded his armies. Do we know if he was a good general?
          They didn't have DNA tests back when Columbus landed in the Caribbean. Do we know if those were really Native Americans?
          They haven't actually been on the sun? Do we really know if it's hot?

          Some people will never know what they don't want to know. World turns.
          There were a couple times yesterday when I wanted to bring up Piazza's PED use, which still gets shoved aside like it never happened, but this thread was getting so ridiculous I didn't want to waste my time. Good call.
          "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

          Comment


          • I love integration as much as the next guy. But I can't rank players that didn't played in the MLB.

            (Quick note: Many of you guys dismiss all the PED users so it's not that I'm the only one who dismiss great players.)

            We're saying best players ever? Ok. Let's see. This is an excerpt from wikipedia's list of professional baseball leagues:

            Americas[edit]

            United States and Canada

            Major League Baseball:
            AL - American League
            NL - National League
            Minor League Baseball:
            AAA: IL - International League
            AAA: PCL - Pacific Coast League
            AA: EL - Eastern League
            AA: SL - Southern League
            AA: TL - Texas League
            A+: CalL - California League
            A+: CarL - Carolina League
            A+: FSL - Florida State League
            A: MwL - Midwest League
            A: SAL - South Atlantic League
            SSA: NYPL - New York-Penn League
            SSA: NwL - Northwest League
            R+: ApL - Appalachian League
            R+: PL - Pioneer League
            R: AzL - Arizona League
            R: GCL - Gulf Coast League
            Independent Baseball:
            American Association of Independent Professional Baseball
            Atlantic League of Professional Baseball
            Canadian-American Association of Professional Baseball
            Freedom Pro League
            Frontier League
            Pacific Association of Professional Baseball Clubs
            Pecos League
            United League Baseball

            Colombia

            Colombian Professional Baseball League

            Dominican Republic

            Dominican Summer League (Official Minor League Affiliate)
            Dominican Professional Baseball League

            Mexico

            Mexican League (Official Minor League Affiliate)
            Mexican Pacific League

            Nicaragua

            Nicaraguan Professional Baseball League

            Panama

            Panamanian Professional Baseball League

            Puerto Rico

            Puerto Rico Baseball League

            Venezuela

            Venezuelan Summer League (Official Minor League Affiliate)
            Venezuelan Professional Baseball League

            Asia[edit]

            China:
            China Baseball League

            Republic of China (Taiwan):
            Chinese Professional Baseball League

            South Korea:
            Major: Korea Professional Baseball
            Minor: Future's League

            Japan:
            Nippon Professional Baseball(NPB)
            Major:
            Central League
            Pacific League
            Minor:
            Eastern League
            Western League
            Independent:
            Baseball Challenge League
            Kansai Independent Baseball League
            Shikoku Island League Plus

            Australia[edit]

            Australia

            ABL - Australian Baseball League

            Europe[edit]

            Italy

            Major: Italian Baseball League 1D
            Minor: Italian Baseball League 2D

            Netherlands

            Major: Honkbal Hoofdklasse (relegation to Honkbal Overgangklasse)
            Minor: Honkbal Overgangsklasse (promotion to Honkbal Hoofdklasse)
            Minor: Honkbal Rookie League
            Some of the best players in these leagues, in their past could have been among the greatest players ever. We can't tell. I recall that here in BBF we went a step further with the listing and players like Saddaru Oh were ranked. Here in the Dominican Winter League the second best pitcher ever was Juan Marichal. You know, the guy that is a top 20/25 All Time Pitcher. The best pitcher ever, who obliterated the likes of every player who played here (many future HOFers like Willie Mays, Willie McCovey, Orlando Cepeda, etc...). And it wasn't even close. He's the Walter Johnson of dominican baseball. His name? Diomedes Olivo.

            This is his BB-Ref page:

            http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...livodi01.shtml

            And it wasn't that he came as a washed up player to MLB. He still had a lot in the tank despite being 41 when he threw his first MLB pitch. His stats here in DR, he's got all the pitching record

            W L ERA G CG SHO IP ER H BB SO
            TOTAL 86 46 2.11 198 70 18 1166.1 273 1042 260 742
            1951-1954 34 14 1.84 67 27 8 426.1 87 379 122 234
            1955-1964 52 32 2.26 131 43 10 740 186 663 138 50
            So he still had something going after debuting in the MLB. But despite his talent, he didn't get chance to display his quality in the MLB for reasons unknown to me. We cannot translate accurately how a player will fare with a chance of scenery. Not everyone is a Jackie Robinson or and Ichiro Suzuki.
            "I am not too serious about anything. I believe you have to enjoy yourself to get the most out of your ability."-
            George Brett

            Comment


            • If one can make comparisons between, say, players from the American League of the 1930s, the National League of the 1970s, and MLB of today... one ought to also be able to compare players from the Negro National League of the 1940s, the Pacific Coast League of the 1950s, or the NPB of the 2000s.

              Accomplishments in other leagues and eras are perfectly real; the only trick is figuring out how to weight them.

              Comment


              • But Yankillaz, a guy like Josh Gibson did hit major league pitching. He hit towering home runs in major league parks. He crushed Negro League pitchers that simply dominated major league hitters in exhibitions. He pounded pitchers in the Mexican League and Puerto Rico. I am not comparing the quality of those leagues' pitchers to either the majors or Negro Leagues, but it does show that no matter where he was the man could hit. His talent crossed over many boundaries, he wasn't just a sideshow attraction at barnstorming games or semipro traveling circuses. Many of the Negro League greats were right there with him, across their eras, able to hammer NL or AL pitching (or stifle major league bats, whatever the case may be).

                Does that mean that every player in the Negro Leagues were equal to or greater than the talent in the major leagues? No, of course not. But, not every player in the major leagues was equal to the talent in the Negro Leagues.

                Comparing the Negro League greats to the best baseball players in China is beyond silly. C'mon man. These great black players in the US played right here, learned the game here, and beat major league teams right here (and in other countries). Let's not get ridiculous with the comparisons. Also, perhaps you should start a thread about Diomedes Olivo. I would be interested in reading about him, because I love baseball history and reading about great baseball players. Why not? HWR has a great thread on Buzz Arlett, one I recommend to anyone here that loves baseball history. Give it a real go. Post essays, stats, stories whatever you got that can bring out the character and times of this famous pitcher.

                EDIT: Hey Yankz, Olivo has a very long and detailed biography attached to his baseball-reference page, by the SABR bio project. Check it out and see if you want to cull anything from there for a thread. See if you can add anything to it, too. It looks real good, but I only started reading it.
                Last edited by Herr28; 02-10-2015, 07:53 AM.
                "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

                Comment


                • Holey buckets. Yankillaz, I am serious, start a thread about Olivo or I will. His SABR bio is an amazing baseball and human story. It says he turned down a shot at joining the White Sox in 1948 because he didn't want to have to work his way up in the minors, and feared getting sent to the South. He also mentioned the fact that he couldn't speak English, and didn't want to be treated as a "Negro" in the South AND not be able to speak the language. It would be twice the horrible experience, so he stayed home on his 500 acre farm with 50 cows and 200 acres where he planned "to build a small housing development." He didn't want to be treated like a non-human while having to prove himself in the US, when he had been building a solid life for himself at home. Makes perfect sense to me.

                  Yet, when he came to the majors at the age of 41, he was said (by his Pittsburgh manager Danny Murtaugh and teammate Roberto Clemente) to have an arm that was only 20 years old. The fastball was still lively, and the curve was devastating. He came up too late to pitch in the '60 World Series, but the Pirates had him pitch BP to their hitters.

                  Make it happen, Yankillaz.
                  "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

                  Comment


                  • I don't know how many times I've had to reference to the same few people over and over again that the stats on BB-Ref. and seamheads are from league games only. And the same few people come back every time and reference barnstorming numbers. This happens because said posters aren't listening and they don't care. There is great research going on to dig up negro league stats. It's the most exciting and comprehensive statistical research done in years. And the supposedly intelligent posters here toss it out as garbage because the articles were written and stats compiled by black people. These articles and stats are apparently not reliable like the stats and articles written by white people at the same time. It's quite pathetic that the majority of posters here have no interest in learning about newly discovered history and will peddle stereotypes and tired cliches so they can maintain a status quo of comfort and conformity.
                    "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                    Comment


                    • There's been lot of good discussion on this thread. I see both sides of Piazza vs Gibson. As I mentioned earlier, I didn't vote. My gut is that Gibson hit like Foxx. The stats available are similar to Foxx's. Perhaps NeL was of lower quality. But the conditions were crummier. I think the cream of the crop is still similar talent-wise for both leagues. I currently have Piazza as the best hitting catcher of all-time by a giant margin, with the exception of Gibson. Was Gibson better? Maybe. I won't rule him out. But I cannot rule out Piazza either.

                      Piazza was an absolute monster at the dish. He might have taken down guys like Pujols and Frank Thomas at the dish had he played first base. Piazza on the road from 1993-2002 hit .340 and slugged a hair above .600. That's insane for catcher. What would he have done if he played first base? And lastly, I think Piazza's hitting would have transferred better than say Frank Thomas' hitting to another era. Piazza was able to get around nicely on high heat. Frank Thomas was a better low ball hitter, but struggled with the high heat. Raise the strike zone and Piazza eclipses him, assuming that Piazza also gets to play 1st base, the easiest position out there. Pujols also hits high heat well. But he is more disciplined that Piazza at the plate. Put Piazza at first base and I don't see why he couldn't have hit .340 and slugged .620 in a neutral park. Piazza was incredible at the dish.

                      Yet Gibson probably hit like Foxx, despite being a catcher himself. That's makes him a beast too. And catchers back then got even more banged up than today's catchers. The equipment and accommodations in Gibson's leagues were atrocious. So in a sense, Gibson was even more handicapped than Piazza.

                      It's too close to call. It's tough to rank. I don't fault either side.

                      Perhaps Gibson murders Ruth in hitting. I'm surprised that there isn't a Ruth vs Gibson thread.

                      Piazza might be a top 10 hitter, when factoring in position. His separation from other catchers is incredible. I currently have Piazza in my top 30 for overall players and now think that I have greatly underrated him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by bluesky5 View Post
                        I don't know how many times I've had to reference to the same few people over and over again that the stats on BB-Ref. and seamheads are from league games only. And the same few people come back every time and reference barnstorming numbers. This happens because said posters aren't listening and they don't care. There is great research going on to dig up negro league stats. It's the most exciting and comprehensive statistical research done in years. And the supposedly intelligent posters here toss it out as garbage because the articles were written and stats compiled by black people. These articles and stats are apparently not reliable like the stats and articles written by white people at the same time. It's quite pathetic that the majority of posters here have no interest in learning about newly discovered history and will peddle stereotypes and tired cliches so they can maintain a status quo of comfort and conformity.
                        Right on.

                        I'll be especially interested to find out data on specific Pitcher-Batter battles. Such as how did Gibson do when facing Satchel Paige, Leon Day or Martin Digiho. How did Oscar Charleston do when facing Smokey Joe Williams? Even though it will be small sample stats, it will help significantly in rating these players, based on how they did against their league's best.

                        Personally, I think both Paige & Walter Johnson are easily Top 10/possibly Top 5 pitchers of All-Time

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by 3and2Fastball View Post
                          Right on.

                          I'll be especially interested to find out data on specific Pitcher-Batter battles. Such as how did Gibson do when facing Satchel Paige, Leon Day or Martin Digiho. How did Oscar Charleston do when facing Smokey Joe Williams? Even though it will be small sample stats, it will help significantly in rating these players, based on how they did against their league's best.

                          Personally, I think both Paige & Walter Johnson are easily Top 10/possibly Top 5 pitchers of All-Time
                          I was stoked when I saw seamheads had OPS+ scores.
                          "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                          Comment


                          • Double poster...
                            "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Herr28 View Post
                              Holey buckets. Yankillaz, I am serious, start a thread about Olivo or I will. His SABR bio is an amazing baseball and human story. It says he turned down a shot at joining the White Sox in 1948 because he didn't want to have to work his way up in the minors, and feared getting sent to the South. He also mentioned the fact that he couldn't speak English, and didn't want to be treated as a "Negro" in the South AND not be able to speak the language. It would be twice the horrible experience, so he stayed home on his 500 acre farm with 50 cows and 200 acres where he planned "to build a small housing development." He didn't want to be treated like a non-human while having to prove himself in the US, when he had been building a solid life for himself at home. Makes perfect sense to me.

                              Yet, when he came to the majors at the age of 41, he was said (by his Pittsburgh manager Danny Murtaugh and teammate Roberto Clemente) to have an arm that was only 20 years old. The fastball was still lively, and the curve was devastating. He came up too late to pitch in the '60 World Series, but the Pirates had him pitch BP to their hitters.

                              Make it happen, Yankillaz.
                              I will. Thing is that the best things written about Olivo are in spanish. I'm going to mark that down as a thing to do in 2015 along with getting rid of my debts (on a good path), reducing 40 pounds of weight (ditto) and start a personal business besides my current job.
                              "I am not too serious about anything. I believe you have to enjoy yourself to get the most out of your ability."-
                              George Brett

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Yankillaz View Post
                                Did you know that Julio Franco is going to play in Asia at age 56? Are you aware that between in professional leagues (MLB, NPBL, LMB, LIDOM and KBO) he has north of 3600 hits? If you add his minor league hits he gets 4229. If he gets over 27 hits he'll have more than Rose in organized baseball? The same thing can be said about Gibson's 800 home runs, and with less cred. I consider Franco a great natural hitter who didn't struck out. But that's just me.
                                What the hell are you talking about? Did you even read my post?
                                "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

                                Comment

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