320 innings in a season

[JR Hart]

I was thinking about how pitcher use has changed since the 70s. Back then it was common for starting pitcher to go 250+ innings. Then I thought about some of the real workhorses. Even for the 70s, 320+ innings was a load. That would be the equivient of 40 starts and 8 innings per start. That's a lot.
So I looked up who were the pitchers who gone 320+ innings since 1930. Here is the list. If I forgot someone, please correct me.

Wilbur Wood (1972) 376.2
Mickey Lolich (1971) 376.1
Bob Feller (1946) 371.1
Wilbur Wood (1973) 359.1
Dizzy Trout (1944) 352.1
Robin Roberts (1953) 346.2
Steve Carlton (1972) 346.1
Gaylord Perry (1973) 344
Bob Feller (1941) 343
Gaylord Perry (1972) 342.2
Phil Niekro (1979) 342
Robin Roberts (1954) 336.2
Denny McClain (1968) 336
Sandy Koufax (1965) 335.2
Phil Niekro (1978) 334.1
Wilbur Wood (1971) 334
Nolan Ryan (1974) 332.2
Phil Niekro (1977) 330.1
Robin Roberts (1952) 330
Bobo Newsome (1938) 329.2
Ferguson Jenkins (1974) 328.2
Gaylord Perry (1970) 328.2
Jim Hunter (1975) 328
Mickey Lolich (1972) 327.1
General Crowder (1932) 327
Nolan Ryan (1973) 326
Gaylord Perry (1969) 325.2
Juan Marichal (1968) 325.2
Dizzy Dean (1935) 325.1
Bert Blyleven (1973) 325
Ferguson Jenkins (1971) 325
Denny McClain (1969) 325
Jim Palmer (1975) 323
Sandy Koufax (1966) 323
Gaylord Perry (1975) 322.1
Wes Ferrell (1935) 322.1
Don Drysdale (1964) 321.1
Juan Marichal (1963) 321.1
Andy Messersmith (1975) 321
Claude Osteen (1969) 321
Wilbur Wood (1974) 320.1
Bob Feller (1940) 320.1

It was done 22 times in the 70s, 9 times in the 60s, 3 times in the 50s (all by Robin Roberts), 4 times in the 40s (3 by Bob Feller) and 4 times in the 30s. No one has even thrown 300 innings (much less 320) since Steve Carlton's 304 in 1980. 320 innings has been pitched 42 times since 1930, but only by 21 different players.

Gaylord Perry has the most seasons (5), followed by Wilbur Wood with 4, then Bob Feller, Robin Roberts, and Phil Niekro each with 3.

A few observations:

Mickey Lolich's 1971 season is very underrated 45 starts 376.1 innings, 25-14 2.92 ERA+124

Gaylord Perry was a man. From 1966-75, he averaged 308 innings, 38 starts, 130 ERA+, 1.106 whip, 192-144.

Dizzy Trout I know it war time but a fabulous year 352.1 innings, 27-14, 33 CG, ERA+ 167

What were the Indians thinking in their use of Feller? 371 innings after virtually 4 years in the military.

Do we not appreciate these guys enough? Virtually all the players on the list had good seasons. They didn't log innings like the deadball era, by how valuable were they to their teams? I just don't think that we consider the value of these pitchers enough.

Any thoughts?

[filihok]

Do we not appreciate these guys enough? Virtually all the players on the list had good seasons. They didn't log innings like the deadball era, by how valuable were they to their teams? I just don't think that we consider the value of these pitchers enough.

Any thoughts?

We value these players exactly like we value any other player. The quality of their production per the quantity of their production.

[JR Hart]

We value these players exactly like we value any other player. The quality of their production per the quantity of their production.

Ok let's take a look at 2009 Zack Greinke and his fantastic 205 ERA+ He's 16-8 2.16 His whip is 1.073 He pitches 229.1 innings. Wouldn't you rather have 1971 Mickey Lolich? Lolich gives his team 140+ more innings at a very high level of production. And don't bring up the John Clarkstons. Lolich's numbers were amazing, even for the 70s.

[filihok]

Ok let's take a look at 2009 Zack Greinke and his fantastic 205 ERA+ He's 16-8 2.16 His whip is 1.073 He pitches 229.1 innings. Wouldn't you rather have 1971 Mickey Lolich?

No.

Average WAR (using FanGraphs FIP based WAR and RA-9 WAR and B-R WAR) for Greinke = 9.7
Average WAR for Lolich 8.5

[JR Hart]

No.

Average WAR (using FanGraphs FIP based WAR and RA-9 WAR and B-R WAR) for Greinke = 9.7
Average WAR for Lolich 8.5

So that settles it? one stat?

I'd take the 140 more innings, of excellant work.

[willshad]

Greinke's season is a lot more impressive and valuable. One way to look at it is this: if you throw in another starter or reliever to pitch those extra 140 innings, how poorly would they have to pitch in order to bring the combined ERA+ of them and Greinke to 124? I have no idea, but I imagine it would be well under league average level, even below replacement level.

Is Lolich more valuable for pitching an extra 140 innings at below replacement level?

[JR Hart]

Greinke's season is a lot more impressive and valuable. One way to look at it is this: if you throw in another starter or reliever to pitch those extra 140 innings, how poorly would they have to pitch in order to bring the combined ERA+ of them and Greinke to 124? I have no idea, but I imagine it would be well under league average level, even below replacement level.

Is Lolich more valuable for pitching an extra 140 innings at below replacement level?

When was 1971 Lolich below replacement level? He had a great season and started 45 games.

[Jackaroo Dave]

a couple of things impress me: How few of these pitchers there are, 23 I count, and how many, 10+, depending on how you look at, say, Dean and Hunter, had their careers shortened or impaired following those stints.

This list completely contradicts the myth that before pitch counts pitchers all used to rack up 300 inning seasons year after year with no adverse effects.

[JR Hart]

I know he was a knuckleballer, but Wilbur Wood pitched 736 innings in a 2 year span.

[bluesky5]

What kind of arm was Nolan Ryan born with? He must have thrown more pitches than just about anyone on that list with his walk totals. Then pitched until he was 46!

[bluesky5]

a couple of things impress me: How few of these pitchers there are, 23 I count, and how many, 10+, depending on how you look at, say, Dean and Hunter, had their careers shortened or impaired following those stints.

This list completely contradicts the myth that before pitch counts pitchers all used to rack up 300 inning seasons year after year with no adverse effects.

True, only the elite [except Newsome] could pitch well after those 320+ spurts or one 320+ year.

Nolan Ryan
Gaylord Perry
Juan Marichal
Bert Blyleven
Steve Carlton
Ferguson Jenkins
Bobo Newsome [only one not in HoF]

Roberts, Palmer and Feller all had drops in production [not that I don't consider them elite]. It takes some durability for sure.

[Bothrops Atrox]

So that settles it? one stat?

I'd take the 140 more innings, of excellant work.

His extra 140 innings is included in his WAR score. That netted about an extra 1.4 WAR for Lolich that year than Griekne for just showing up. Grienke made that up and then some by preventing runners from scoring at a much better rate relative to average. WAR says that Grienk gave up runs at such a greater clip, that it made up for the IP advantage.

If you wish to neutralize IP issues across eras, eliminate replacement value from the equation and look at WAA instead. You will see guys like Glavine, Smoltz,, etc. inch closer to the Niekro's and Perrys of the world in the rankings. This sounds like what Willshad would like.

JR - you should like WAR, as it will give your guys (Niekro, Carlton. etc) a much better shake than some other systems since it uses a generous playing time component.

[Bothrops Atrox]

We value these players exactly like we value any other player. The quality of their production per the quantity of their production.

Exactly - the quality vs. quantity argument has never excited me much. It really is about the interaction of the two for me.

[JR Hart]

True, only the elite [except Newsome] could pitch well after those 320+ spurts or one 320+ year.

Nolan Ryan
Gaylord Perry
Juan Marichal
Bert Blyleven
Steve Carlton
Ferguson Jenkins
Bobo Newsome [only one not in HoF]

Roberts, Palmer and Feller all had drops in production [not that I don't consider them elite]. It takes some durability for sure.

Palmer had 3 straight outstanding seasons after 1975 and logged huge innings 315, 319, 296. That workload may have contributed to an injury in 1979 at the age of 33.

Roberts had just more good year after the seasons that I noted. But what an incredible workhorse he was. From 1950-56 he AVERAGED 319 innings, a 22-14 record, 124 ERA+, 1.113 whip.

Feller was ruined by the 1946 season. He was pretty much a finesse pitcher after that. 1975 had a big effect on Catfish, too.

[JR Hart]

His extra 140 innings is included in his WAR score. That netted about an extra 1.4 WAR for Lolich that year than Griekne for just showing up. Grienke made that up and then some by preventing runners from scoring at a much better rate relative to average. WAR says that Grienk gave up runs at such a greater clip, that it made up for the IP advantage.

If you wish to neutralize IP issues across eras, eliminate replacement value from the equation and look at WAA instead. You will see guys like Glavine, Smoltz,, etc. inch closer to the Niekro's and Perrys of the world in the rankings. This sounds like what Willshad would like.

JR - you should like WAR, as it will give your guys (Niekro, Carlton. etc) a much better shake than some other systems since it uses a generous playing time component.

I see where you're coming from, but it just seems like I'd rather have 376 innings of Lolich than 229 innings of Zack.