The "Halo Effect"

[toomanyhatz]

You know- the players who are accepted as all-time greats because they died young, or suffered an early career-ending injury, or overcame prejudice of one form or another. I presume we all agree that it affects how we perceive them, but I'm interested in who you think has benefitted from it and who hasn't.

My first thought is that people are often accused of judging Jackie Robinson "on a curve" based on the obvious prejudice and difficulty he faced, but I think the facts bear out that he was a pretty amazing player. Roberto Clemente, on the other hand- an amazing player, but perhaps overrated. Not one of the top 50 players ever, in my opinion, and often ranked that way. Lou Gehrig- I'm not sure. An amazing offensive force to be sure, but would Jimmy Foxx or Johnny Mize or Hank Greenberg have been just as (more) amazing with Babe Ruth hitting ahead of them?

Negro Leagues players are of course in this discussion as well, but the difference there is a bit of speculation is inevitable since we don't have good, dependable records. I'm mainly talking about MLB players who we might perceive differently as a result of who they are or what they did off the field that perhaps keeps us from seeing them as they are.

Who else falls under the category I'm speaking of? And who's underrated or overrated as a result?

[Jackaroo Dave]

It's an interesting question. But I think in many cases it is hard to tell, because the cause of the halo is the loss of a good part of a career. So you have two speculative revisions to make: how would the player be evaluated without the halo; how would the player have done without the halo-inducing event(s). In addition to the Negro League stars, I'm thinking of Pete Reiser, Addie Joss, Ray Chapman, Sandy Koufax, Dizzy Dean, Mark Fydrich, Herb Score . . . .

[JR Hart]

Herb Score was on his way to a brilliant career, when he caught a batted ball with his face.

[JR Hart]

I can't think of a better example than Ross Youngs.

[dgarza]

It's hard to tell because most of the players who are considered all-time greats have actually played a pretty full career, so the numbers can always be used to back them up. The only one ever mentioned who had a short career is Jackie Robinson. He was in baseball only 12 years really (Majors, Minors, & Negro League), but he did play until he was 37. Oh, I guess Koufax has been called an all-time great too. Has anyone else been called an all-time great even though they stopped playing before age 35? I can't think of any...

Ross Youngs, Herb Score, Dizzy Dean, Addie Joss, etc., have never been called all-time greats.

[JR Hart]

It's hard to tell because most of the players who are considered all-time greats have actually played a pretty full career, so the numbers can always be used to back them up. The only one ever mentioned who had a short career is Jackie Robinson. He was in baseball only 12 years really (Majors, Minors, & Negro League), but he did play until he was 37. Oh, I guess Koufax has been called an all-time great too. Has anyone else been called an all-time great even though they stopped playing before age 35? I can't think of any...

Ross Youngs, Herb Score, Dizzy Dean, Addie Joss, etc., have never been called all-time greats.

By about everybody

[chicagowhitesox1173]

I think Ross Youngs was considered an alltime great at one time but was forgotten through the years. The Frankie Frisch elections and Bill James calling him out as not being a Hall of Famer probably hurt his legacy more than anything. I personally think he's a Hall of Famer and I know John McGraw really had alot of respect for him. Christy Mathewson and Ross Youngs were the only pictures he had on his wall. I read a story on him once about his brother cheating on him with his wife and he wished them luck and never had any ill feelings towards them. From what alot of people say he was a really nice, generous guy.

Smokey Joe Wood would probably fall on this list too.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

By about everybody

If he were black it would be a different story? Then again, there aren't many all-time black pitchers are there? There goes the era adjustment theories.

[toomanyhatz]

there aren't many all-time black pitchers are there?

Something else I'm interested in, and have thought about starting a thread about. This is unquestionably true. You've got Paige, Bullet Joe, the other great Negro League pitchers, Bob Gibson, Fergie Jenkins, maybe CC before he's through, and that's really about it. I'm curious why.

One theory is, that the Negro Leagues held on to the idea that pitchers should do double duty (for example the fellow with that as a nickname) for a lot longer than the Majors did. If a player was talented enough, they were out there every day- pitchers were more the players that didn't excel elsewhere. There might be some carry-over into modern times that black players are often developed as catchers, outfielders or infielders. Not many as pitchers. It's the only position where you see no (or t least very few) black players near the top of the list of the very best.

Subject for a different thread, but it's a phenomenon that's interesting and pretty undeniable.

[Captain Cold Nose]

By about everybody

Not here so much, really. He's generally finished about 15th or so at the most in any all-time pitching polls. Peak, maybe. But rarely has his name been put forward with Johnson, Grove, Maddux, etc. for all-time best. And not by long-time regulars.

Ross Youngs died at 30. I'd have a real hard time believing anyone was calling him an all-time great at any time, especially considering the players from his era.

[bluesky5]

Christy Mathewson was undeniably great. He definitely has a halo though. Sometimes referred to as the "Christian gentleman."

Billy Sunday, an OF for the Cubs/Pirates/Phils 1883-'90 quit baseball to become a pastor. I personally think he was a hypocrite and a nut but...