Bert Blyleven vs. Pedro Martinez

[Cowtipper]

Here's a matchup of a great compiler and a pitcher with a great peak. Blyleven beats Martinez in strikeouts, wins (and a whole bunch of compiler categories), WAR and grey ink, while Martinez beats Blyleven in ERA, winning percentage, ERA+,and black ink.

Martinez led the league in ERA five times, while Blyleven paced the loop in innings pitched twice. Blyleven tossed at least 10 complete games 11 times, while Martinez accomplished the feat only once.

Two great pitchers, but which one was better?

[fenrir]

Pedro, easily.

Always been more of a peak guy myself.

[toomanyhatz]

Pedro. I love Blyleven, and am glad he's in the Hall, but Pedro did it against 'roided up supermen. And with mostly raw nerve and a combination of pitches. None of his individual pitches were world-class, it was the combo (and the desire to throw inside against anybody at any time) that made him great.

[Joltin' Joe]

but Pedro did it against 'roided up supermen.

all while pitching in a bandbox too!

None of his individual pitches were world-class

Are you serious? His fastball was 97mph with great movement, his change was filthy, and his curveball was absolutely devastating. I still remember the look that Big Mac turned around and gave the umpire during the Allstar game after he saw that devastating curve, it was as he was saying, "are you freakin' kidding me, how in the world am I supposed to hit that???"

[toomanyhatz]

His fastball was 97mph with great movement, his change was filthy, and his curveball was absolutely devastating. I still remember the look that Big Mac turned around and gave the umpire during the Allstar game after he saw that devastating curve, it was as he was saying, "are you freakin' kidding me, how in the world am I supposed to hit that???"

He did have a great change, but I don't think of him as having a world-class fastball- I might misremember, but I thought it was usually low 90s, and his slider was certainly no match for Randy Johnson's. I thought it was mostly having an array of pitches at his disposal and being solid with all of them but not the very best at any. My main memory of his pitching is that he could never be out-guessed. Some pitchers (Koufax, Rivera, even Blyleven) knowing what was coming didn't help you, whereas I think hitters facing Pedro never knew what was coming.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

No, Pedro could run it up in the high 90s at one time. Sick moving two-seamer, a wicked change, and a nasty hook. His willingness to come inside, even in this day and age of hitters crowding the plate, helped him succeed. Coming up tight with the fastball and using that eye level expectation to drop the curve. Bert had a gnarly hook as well but I think Pedro takes this even before you consider era, hitters faced, and ballparks pitched in.

It's bad video, but just check this out. First batter Larkin, such a chess match. He's even sitting on something off-speed as you can tell by his late reaction in fouling off of fastballs. I think he's sitting on the hook, which never comes. Pedro being smart going to the change which potrays the same arm motion as the heater. Dude was simply filthy beyond belief. The numbers are already on your side as a pitcher, but with that type of stuff, the hitters margin for error shrinks even more.

[Sultan_1895-1948]

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[pheasant]

I have Pedro by a big margin. Pedro's peak is the best ever, as is his 2000 season. It's too bad he declined so heavily at a young age. I think he still might crack my top 10. His peak was that good.

[SamtheBravesFan]

As much as I want to defend Bert, Pedro's peak blows just about everyone away. That's what most people will take, including me.

[Joltin' Joe]

It's bad video, but just check this out. First batter Larkin, such a chess match. He's even sitting on something off-speed as you can tell by his late reaction in fouling off of fastballs. I think he's sitting on the hook, which never comes. Pedro being smart going to the change which potrays the same arm motion as the heater. Dude was simply filthy beyond belief. The numbers are already on your side as a pitcher, but with that type of stuff, the hitters margin for error shrinks even more.

Yeah this was the Allstar game I was talking about. He strikes out Larkin, Walker, Sosa, and McGwire in succession. He totally blows away Sosa and McGwire; Larkin and Walker actually looked good in comparison. The look that McGwire gave the ump after looking at the filthy hook was worth a thousand words. It's too bad all these videos have been taken off the internet by MLB.

The little guy totally dominated smack in the middle of the steroid-era pitching in a total bandbox.

[Steven Gallanter]

He did have a great change, but I don't think of him as having a world-class fastball- I might misremember, but I thought it was usually low 90s, and his slider was certainly no match for Randy Johnson's. I thought it was mostly having an array of pitches at his disposal and being solid with all of them but not the very best at any. My main memory of his pitching is that he could never be out-guessed. Some pitchers (Koufax, Rivera, even Blyleven) knowing what was coming didn't help you, whereas I think hitters facing Pedro never knew what was coming.

Pedro Martinez' fastball was investigating prior to the 1999 All-Star game where he obliterated Larkin, Walker, Bonds, McGwire and Sosa. I think that that specific outing took the highest end off his top heat. In 1998 I saw a lot of Pedro and no one got around on his 4-seamer. If Pedro had chose to throw just his fastball he would have been a winner.

I worked at Fenway in 2002 and had the privilege of watching Martinez closely. Mgr. Grady Little closely monitored Martinez' work load. Martinez he went 20-4/2.26 with 239 Ks in 199 IP. I don't think there has ever been another pitcher who has won 20 pitching under 200 innings.

Bert Blyleven's curve was his calling card. His fame for that pitch is one of those cases where reputation and reality match very well. Rikbert had a 12-6 off speed #2 and a 1-8 hard curve that defied physics.

Bert Blyeven is a deserving HOFer for his career value and being on of the premier practitioners of the curve.

Pedro Martinez will be a deserving HOFer for his 3 CYAs and 2 runner-ups in that award.

http://stevegallanter.wordpress.com

[Cowtipper]

I am honestly surprised Blyleven has received as many votes as he has.

[leecemark]

--If you are all about career value then there is a case for Blyleven. He was good to very good for a very long time. However, Pedro at his peak was a good as any pitcher ever to step on the mound and it was not a short peak. He was really good to great for a pretty long time. Thats an easy choice for me. Pedro is top 15 or so all time (not enough innings to rank higher) while Byleven is maybe top 30 (more than that were better, but most not for nearly as long).

[White Knight]

Is this a joke? Pedro by a mile.

[Seels]

Pedro. I love Blyleven, and am glad he's in the Hall, but Pedro did it against 'roided up supermen. And with mostly raw nerve and a combination of pitches. None of his individual pitches were world-class, it was the combo (and the desire to throw inside against anybody at any time) that made him great.

Pedro's cut fastball and change up are among the best pitches of all time.

I think there are only a very small circle of pitchers which have any argument with Pedro in one of these debates, and Bert isn't one of them. Pedro v Christy Matthewson or Lefty Grove would probably be closer. When a guy has likely the greatest performance ever in a sport, you need a decent amount more than just a pure longevity case like Bert to compare.