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In my continuing desire to establish my top players at each position, I'm interested in seeing how outfielders rate in people's minds, so I'll start by giving my own uninformed opinion. I'm keeping it to MLB players, mainly because I don't want to show off my lack of Negro League knowledge yet again, but feel free to put Charleston or Stearns or Cool Papa Bell on your own list if you so desire. Be prepared to argue your case, though- the more we argue the more I learn. Anyway, as it stands now, and always subject to chage, here's my top 5 at each position:
LF
1.Ted Williams - This is the biggest change for me since I started posting here- Ted's moved ahead of Bonds. On one hand, my appreciation for multi-point players, and the power/speed combo in particular, makes me still tempted to lower him to second. But after carefully studying the numbers, I simply couldn't defend it any more. The combo of great, historic power with plate discipline and patience, combined with the fact that he just flat out created runs in huge numbers was just too good to deny. No, he wasn't the fielder or runner Bonds was by a longshot, but if anything he's underrated at those things, and even if he'd been awful, his offensive edge is simply too good to deny. Gehrig has pretty impressive numbers too, but allowing for the fact that he hit behind Ruth and then DiMaggio, I have to take some points off. Once I do that, it's hard to see Williams as anything other than the second greatest offensive player in MLB history.
2. Barry Bonds – But he’s still number two. Forgive me, Musial fans. Even if you punish him for PEDs, even if you allow for more of a decline than I think he would have had if clean, the all-around play is just too good to deny. Add in the fact that I think he could have gotten up to some historic numbers- 500/500 might never be reached again- and it’s just too good to deny. Again, not that I always agree with James, but James put him in the top 20 all-time as of the end of 1999 and predicted some pretty lofty end-numbers for him. Obviously, some of them were surpassed, but not to be taken seriously, but some of them were not out of line. He struck out more than Williams, but like him and few others, he didn’t just have good plate discipline- he led the league in walks year after year after year. He may not have made 200+ had he been clean, but I’m convinced he would’ve kept it up for a while longer. Even without the HR totals, he’s one of the greatest players ever at not making outs.
3. Stan Musial – Not far behind, though. Not as good a LF as Bonds, but solid at several positions, obviously a lot fewer SB but a decent runner in an era when steals wasn't much part of the game, and a much, much classier guy than Bonds (as I assume it doesn’t need to be said). Unlike Bonds, who put personal glory before team (and as I’ve said before, was actually a better run producer in the 90s before setting personal goals), he was about just winning, and he knew how to do it.
4. Rickey Henderson – Another guy who just knew how to win. Got on base, needless to say could steal a base till a very advanced age, and had occasional power besides. An egotist supreme, obviously, but I suspect he had more of a sense of humor about himself than he’s given credit for. A larger-than-life character to be sure, it sometimes obscures what an amazing player he was. My favorite all-time trivia question involves the two members of the 25/75 club, that is, 25 HR and 75 SB in the same season. Henderson’s one- any guesses as to the other?
5. Joe Jackson – Tough call between him and Yaz, but I’ve read so many accounts about what an amazing pure hitter he was, and the stats tend to back it up. If anything I think he’s thought of as a dumb guy with great natural talent- my suspicion is he was uneducated, but not dumb, and how hard he worked to be the hitter he was is too easily overlooked. Yaz is 6th. I’d be interested in arguing this point with anyone who feels differently- I did think about it for a while.
CF
I suspect everyone has the same top 5 here (unless they choose to include Charleston- just based on my suspicions and instinct I’d probably put him 3rd), it’s more of a question of order.
1. Willie Mays – One hell of an all-around player, possibly the greatest ever. I don’t know what else I can say, other than I think the distance between him and Cobb is rail thin. If anything Mays’ fielding edge makes the difference.
2. Ty Cobb – Ty Cobb the creep has been overstated, possibly the best small-ball player ever has been understated. I don’t think he was ever superior to Ruth- he was mainly thought so in the first half of the 20th century because the long ball was still devalued- but he was still the greatest station-to-station player in baseball history by a large margin, and that’s still worth a hell of a lot.
3. Mickey Mantle – Every bit the player Mays was, only with a quicker decline (and better OBP and not quite as good an arm). I’ve said this before, but one of the more amazing players in baseball history. That he was able to have as long a career as he had and accomplish as much as he did is still pretty staggering.
4. Tris Speaker – I’m not totally comfortable putting him ahead of DiMaggio, but I do think DiMaggio’s grace makes people think he was the greatest CF ever. He wasn’t, but anyone wanting to change the order of these five could probably do so in just about any order and it wouldn’t offend me.
5. Joe DiMaggio – As James famously said, the third-best fielding CF in his family, and ultimately missed more games due to injury than Mantle. That said (and like all five of these guys) there wasn’t a whole hell of a lot he couldn’t do on the diamond.
RF
1. Babe Ruth – Was there ever any doubt? The largest margin at any position. By the standards of the day, he struck out a lot, and he probably attempted to steal bases more often than he should have. Those were his only flaws. Similarly to Jackson, he’s thought of as a dumb guy with amazing talent. Actually, he was one of the smartest and most instinctive players ever. He might have made a great manager. Shame we’ll never know.
2. Hank Aaron – Wasn’t the all-around player Ruth was, even if he surpassed him in sheer numbers. Something to be said for that degree of consistency, though. We might never see his like again. Sure, moving to Atlanta helped with the power numbers, anyway, but there was so much more to him than that- he was a five-point player, particularly when younger.
3. Frank Robinson – The most important cog in those great 60s/70s Orioles teams? I would have loved to have seen him finish off his career with the Big Red Machine had he never been traded. Actually, no, as a Dodger fan I probably wouldn’t have wanted that after all.
4. Mel Ott – Yeah, the short porch at the Polo Grounds helped him. And were that all there was to his game he might not be rated this high. Possibly the most underrated top ten player at any position, so much better than Clemente who’s probably the most overrated, as much as I loved him as a player.
5. Tony Gwynn – James has Rose here, but I tend to put players at the position where they played the most games, which in Rose’s case is actually 1B. Actually I might prefer Gwynn anyway, another player who’s not underrated per se, but doesn’t have his whole game looked at. Everybody knows what a great pure hitter he was, but it’s forgotten that at different times he was a great fielder, base stealer and even an occasional power hitter as well. Had a pretty impressive all-around game in addition to obviously being the best pure hitter of his era (OK, Boggs was close). He also held up longer than anybody had the right to expect.
Let the arguments begin.
LF
1.Ted Williams - This is the biggest change for me since I started posting here- Ted's moved ahead of Bonds. On one hand, my appreciation for multi-point players, and the power/speed combo in particular, makes me still tempted to lower him to second. But after carefully studying the numbers, I simply couldn't defend it any more. The combo of great, historic power with plate discipline and patience, combined with the fact that he just flat out created runs in huge numbers was just too good to deny. No, he wasn't the fielder or runner Bonds was by a longshot, but if anything he's underrated at those things, and even if he'd been awful, his offensive edge is simply too good to deny. Gehrig has pretty impressive numbers too, but allowing for the fact that he hit behind Ruth and then DiMaggio, I have to take some points off. Once I do that, it's hard to see Williams as anything other than the second greatest offensive player in MLB history.
2. Barry Bonds – But he’s still number two. Forgive me, Musial fans. Even if you punish him for PEDs, even if you allow for more of a decline than I think he would have had if clean, the all-around play is just too good to deny. Add in the fact that I think he could have gotten up to some historic numbers- 500/500 might never be reached again- and it’s just too good to deny. Again, not that I always agree with James, but James put him in the top 20 all-time as of the end of 1999 and predicted some pretty lofty end-numbers for him. Obviously, some of them were surpassed, but not to be taken seriously, but some of them were not out of line. He struck out more than Williams, but like him and few others, he didn’t just have good plate discipline- he led the league in walks year after year after year. He may not have made 200+ had he been clean, but I’m convinced he would’ve kept it up for a while longer. Even without the HR totals, he’s one of the greatest players ever at not making outs.
3. Stan Musial – Not far behind, though. Not as good a LF as Bonds, but solid at several positions, obviously a lot fewer SB but a decent runner in an era when steals wasn't much part of the game, and a much, much classier guy than Bonds (as I assume it doesn’t need to be said). Unlike Bonds, who put personal glory before team (and as I’ve said before, was actually a better run producer in the 90s before setting personal goals), he was about just winning, and he knew how to do it.
4. Rickey Henderson – Another guy who just knew how to win. Got on base, needless to say could steal a base till a very advanced age, and had occasional power besides. An egotist supreme, obviously, but I suspect he had more of a sense of humor about himself than he’s given credit for. A larger-than-life character to be sure, it sometimes obscures what an amazing player he was. My favorite all-time trivia question involves the two members of the 25/75 club, that is, 25 HR and 75 SB in the same season. Henderson’s one- any guesses as to the other?
5. Joe Jackson – Tough call between him and Yaz, but I’ve read so many accounts about what an amazing pure hitter he was, and the stats tend to back it up. If anything I think he’s thought of as a dumb guy with great natural talent- my suspicion is he was uneducated, but not dumb, and how hard he worked to be the hitter he was is too easily overlooked. Yaz is 6th. I’d be interested in arguing this point with anyone who feels differently- I did think about it for a while.
CF
I suspect everyone has the same top 5 here (unless they choose to include Charleston- just based on my suspicions and instinct I’d probably put him 3rd), it’s more of a question of order.
1. Willie Mays – One hell of an all-around player, possibly the greatest ever. I don’t know what else I can say, other than I think the distance between him and Cobb is rail thin. If anything Mays’ fielding edge makes the difference.
2. Ty Cobb – Ty Cobb the creep has been overstated, possibly the best small-ball player ever has been understated. I don’t think he was ever superior to Ruth- he was mainly thought so in the first half of the 20th century because the long ball was still devalued- but he was still the greatest station-to-station player in baseball history by a large margin, and that’s still worth a hell of a lot.
3. Mickey Mantle – Every bit the player Mays was, only with a quicker decline (and better OBP and not quite as good an arm). I’ve said this before, but one of the more amazing players in baseball history. That he was able to have as long a career as he had and accomplish as much as he did is still pretty staggering.
4. Tris Speaker – I’m not totally comfortable putting him ahead of DiMaggio, but I do think DiMaggio’s grace makes people think he was the greatest CF ever. He wasn’t, but anyone wanting to change the order of these five could probably do so in just about any order and it wouldn’t offend me.
5. Joe DiMaggio – As James famously said, the third-best fielding CF in his family, and ultimately missed more games due to injury than Mantle. That said (and like all five of these guys) there wasn’t a whole hell of a lot he couldn’t do on the diamond.
RF
1. Babe Ruth – Was there ever any doubt? The largest margin at any position. By the standards of the day, he struck out a lot, and he probably attempted to steal bases more often than he should have. Those were his only flaws. Similarly to Jackson, he’s thought of as a dumb guy with amazing talent. Actually, he was one of the smartest and most instinctive players ever. He might have made a great manager. Shame we’ll never know.
2. Hank Aaron – Wasn’t the all-around player Ruth was, even if he surpassed him in sheer numbers. Something to be said for that degree of consistency, though. We might never see his like again. Sure, moving to Atlanta helped with the power numbers, anyway, but there was so much more to him than that- he was a five-point player, particularly when younger.
3. Frank Robinson – The most important cog in those great 60s/70s Orioles teams? I would have loved to have seen him finish off his career with the Big Red Machine had he never been traded. Actually, no, as a Dodger fan I probably wouldn’t have wanted that after all.
4. Mel Ott – Yeah, the short porch at the Polo Grounds helped him. And were that all there was to his game he might not be rated this high. Possibly the most underrated top ten player at any position, so much better than Clemente who’s probably the most overrated, as much as I loved him as a player.
5. Tony Gwynn – James has Rose here, but I tend to put players at the position where they played the most games, which in Rose’s case is actually 1B. Actually I might prefer Gwynn anyway, another player who’s not underrated per se, but doesn’t have his whole game looked at. Everybody knows what a great pure hitter he was, but it’s forgotten that at different times he was a great fielder, base stealer and even an occasional power hitter as well. Had a pretty impressive all-around game in addition to obviously being the best pure hitter of his era (OK, Boggs was close). He also held up longer than anybody had the right to expect.
Let the arguments begin.
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