Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Your top 5 at each OF position

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Your top 5 at each OF position

    In my continuing desire to establish my top players at each position, I'm interested in seeing how outfielders rate in people's minds, so I'll start by giving my own uninformed opinion. I'm keeping it to MLB players, mainly because I don't want to show off my lack of Negro League knowledge yet again, but feel free to put Charleston or Stearns or Cool Papa Bell on your own list if you so desire. Be prepared to argue your case, though- the more we argue the more I learn. Anyway, as it stands now, and always subject to chage, here's my top 5 at each position:


    LF

    1.Ted Williams - This is the biggest change for me since I started posting here- Ted's moved ahead of Bonds. On one hand, my appreciation for multi-point players, and the power/speed combo in particular, makes me still tempted to lower him to second. But after carefully studying the numbers, I simply couldn't defend it any more. The combo of great, historic power with plate discipline and patience, combined with the fact that he just flat out created runs in huge numbers was just too good to deny. No, he wasn't the fielder or runner Bonds was by a longshot, but if anything he's underrated at those things, and even if he'd been awful, his offensive edge is simply too good to deny. Gehrig has pretty impressive numbers too, but allowing for the fact that he hit behind Ruth and then DiMaggio, I have to take some points off. Once I do that, it's hard to see Williams as anything other than the second greatest offensive player in MLB history.

    2. Barry Bonds – But he’s still number two. Forgive me, Musial fans. Even if you punish him for PEDs, even if you allow for more of a decline than I think he would have had if clean, the all-around play is just too good to deny. Add in the fact that I think he could have gotten up to some historic numbers- 500/500 might never be reached again- and it’s just too good to deny. Again, not that I always agree with James, but James put him in the top 20 all-time as of the end of 1999 and predicted some pretty lofty end-numbers for him. Obviously, some of them were surpassed, but not to be taken seriously, but some of them were not out of line. He struck out more than Williams, but like him and few others, he didn’t just have good plate discipline- he led the league in walks year after year after year. He may not have made 200+ had he been clean, but I’m convinced he would’ve kept it up for a while longer. Even without the HR totals, he’s one of the greatest players ever at not making outs.

    3. Stan Musial – Not far behind, though. Not as good a LF as Bonds, but solid at several positions, obviously a lot fewer SB but a decent runner in an era when steals wasn't much part of the game, and a much, much classier guy than Bonds (as I assume it doesn’t need to be said). Unlike Bonds, who put personal glory before team (and as I’ve said before, was actually a better run producer in the 90s before setting personal goals), he was about just winning, and he knew how to do it.

    4. Rickey Henderson – Another guy who just knew how to win. Got on base, needless to say could steal a base till a very advanced age, and had occasional power besides. An egotist supreme, obviously, but I suspect he had more of a sense of humor about himself than he’s given credit for. A larger-than-life character to be sure, it sometimes obscures what an amazing player he was. My favorite all-time trivia question involves the two members of the 25/75 club, that is, 25 HR and 75 SB in the same season. Henderson’s one- any guesses as to the other?

    5. Joe Jackson – Tough call between him and Yaz, but I’ve read so many accounts about what an amazing pure hitter he was, and the stats tend to back it up. If anything I think he’s thought of as a dumb guy with great natural talent- my suspicion is he was uneducated, but not dumb, and how hard he worked to be the hitter he was is too easily overlooked. Yaz is 6th. I’d be interested in arguing this point with anyone who feels differently- I did think about it for a while.


    CF

    I suspect everyone has the same top 5 here (unless they choose to include Charleston- just based on my suspicions and instinct I’d probably put him 3rd), it’s more of a question of order.

    1. Willie Mays – One hell of an all-around player, possibly the greatest ever. I don’t know what else I can say, other than I think the distance between him and Cobb is rail thin. If anything Mays’ fielding edge makes the difference.

    2. Ty Cobb – Ty Cobb the creep has been overstated, possibly the best small-ball player ever has been understated. I don’t think he was ever superior to Ruth- he was mainly thought so in the first half of the 20th century because the long ball was still devalued- but he was still the greatest station-to-station player in baseball history by a large margin, and that’s still worth a hell of a lot.

    3. Mickey Mantle – Every bit the player Mays was, only with a quicker decline (and better OBP and not quite as good an arm). I’ve said this before, but one of the more amazing players in baseball history. That he was able to have as long a career as he had and accomplish as much as he did is still pretty staggering.

    4. Tris Speaker – I’m not totally comfortable putting him ahead of DiMaggio, but I do think DiMaggio’s grace makes people think he was the greatest CF ever. He wasn’t, but anyone wanting to change the order of these five could probably do so in just about any order and it wouldn’t offend me.

    5. Joe DiMaggio – As James famously said, the third-best fielding CF in his family, and ultimately missed more games due to injury than Mantle. That said (and like all five of these guys) there wasn’t a whole hell of a lot he couldn’t do on the diamond.


    RF

    1. Babe Ruth – Was there ever any doubt? The largest margin at any position. By the standards of the day, he struck out a lot, and he probably attempted to steal bases more often than he should have. Those were his only flaws. Similarly to Jackson, he’s thought of as a dumb guy with amazing talent. Actually, he was one of the smartest and most instinctive players ever. He might have made a great manager. Shame we’ll never know.

    2. Hank Aaron – Wasn’t the all-around player Ruth was, even if he surpassed him in sheer numbers. Something to be said for that degree of consistency, though. We might never see his like again. Sure, moving to Atlanta helped with the power numbers, anyway, but there was so much more to him than that- he was a five-point player, particularly when younger.

    3. Frank Robinson – The most important cog in those great 60s/70s Orioles teams? I would have loved to have seen him finish off his career with the Big Red Machine had he never been traded. Actually, no, as a Dodger fan I probably wouldn’t have wanted that after all.

    4. Mel Ott – Yeah, the short porch at the Polo Grounds helped him. And were that all there was to his game he might not be rated this high. Possibly the most underrated top ten player at any position, so much better than Clemente who’s probably the most overrated, as much as I loved him as a player.

    5. Tony Gwynn – James has Rose here, but I tend to put players at the position where they played the most games, which in Rose’s case is actually 1B. Actually I might prefer Gwynn anyway, another player who’s not underrated per se, but doesn’t have his whole game looked at. Everybody knows what a great pure hitter he was, but it’s forgotten that at different times he was a great fielder, base stealer and even an occasional power hitter as well. Had a pretty impressive all-around game in addition to obviously being the best pure hitter of his era (OK, Boggs was close). He also held up longer than anybody had the right to expect.

    Let the arguments begin.
    Found in a fortune cookie On Thursday, August 18th, 2005: "Hard words break no bones, Kind words butter no parsnips."

    1955 1959 1963 1965 1981 1988 2017?

  • #2
    Left Field
    1. Barry Bonds - I am a fan of all-around players. Bonds is the best all-around LF ever. As far as steroids I simply ignore post '98.

    2. Ted Williams - How many HR would he have if not for the wars?

    3. Stan Musial - Great at life in general.

    4. Ricky Henderson - Greatest leadoff man of all-time. Loved the game as much as anyone ever.

    5. Joe Jackson - He could be #2. I seriously believe he was that good.

    HM [no HM's are in order]: Yastrzemski, Ed Delahanty, Al Simmons, Jesse Burkett, Jim O'Rourke, Ralph Kiner, Fred Clarke

    Centerfield
    1. Willie Mays - One of the greatest natural talents ever and underrated knowledge of the game.

    2. Ty Cobb - Could he hit for power if he wanted? He said yes and I believe him. Incredible competitor. I don't believe he was as big a dick as people make him out to be. For what it's worth. There is a thread about it on here somewhere.

    3. Tris Speaker

    4. Ken Griffey Jr. - I just don't believe that DiMaggio or Mantle were as good of ballplayers. He consistently gets ranked even behind Duke Snider. Which I find ludicrous. Had he not been riddled with injuries I think he is the clean HR king. Look at those numbers while playing gold glove caliber CF. While he was a superstar in my opinion he doesn't get the deserved recognition because #1 he played in Seattle and #2 he was truly peaking right as soon as the '98 cheat-fest was underway. He nearly had 4 straight 50 HR seasons from '96-'99. That is all but forgotten, which is sad. No other all-time great player besides Mantle had his career derailed as much because of injuries. Will never be immortalized with the what if's Mantle and DiMaggio get either. He isn't a distant 4th, from being #1.

    5. Mickey Mantle - What could have been if not for all the injuries?

    HM: Joe DiMaggio, Duke Snider, Rich Ashburn, Jim Wynn, Earl Averill, Ken Lofton, Larry Doby, Billy Hamilton, Paul Hines, Pete Browning, Andruw Jones

    Right Field
    1. Babe Ruth - He's Babe Ruth.

    2. Hank Aaron - Consistently great. Class act. People forget he was a second baseman coming up too.

    3. Frank Robinson - Not quite as good as Hank. Fiery competitor. The fact he was a player/manager tells a lot.

    4. Vladimir Guerrero - Overshadowed for some of the same reasons as Griffey. Was a true 5-tool player.

    5. Mel Ott - Better all-around player than people give him credit for.

    *Roberto Clemente is the most overrated player possibly ever.

    HM: Harry Heilmann, Wahoo Sam Crawford, Dave Winfield, Tony Gwynn, Harry Hooper, Wee Willie Keeler, Al Kaline, Big Sam Thompson, King Kelly
    Last edited by bluesky5; 12-17-2012, 09:08 PM. Reason: HM: Andruw Jones
    "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

    Comment


    • #3
      Bonds
      Williams
      Musial
      Henderson
      Yastrzemski

      Mays
      Cobb
      Speaker
      Mantle
      DiMaggio

      Ruth
      Aaron
      Robinson
      Ott
      Kaline
      1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

      1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

      1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


      The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
      The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

      Comment


      • #4
        Left Field:
        1. Barry Bonds
        2. Ted Williams- with war credit he comes extremely close to Bonds
        3. Stan Musial
        4. Rickey Henderson
        5. Carl Yastrzemski, just ahead of
        Al Simmons, Ed Delahanty, Joe Jackson

        Center Field:
        1. Willie Mays, a millimeter ahead of
        2. Ty Cobb
        3. Mickey Mantle
        4. Tris Speaker
        5. Joe DiMaggio, ahead of
        Ken Griffey Jr., Duke Snider

        Right Field:
        1. Babe Ruth- still the most dominant player of all time.
        2. Hank aaron
        3. Frank Robinson- almost as good as Aaron, didn't last quite as long.
        4. Mel Ott
        5. Tough call- I'll go with Sam Crawford, just ahead of Reggie Jackson, Al Kaline, Gary Sheffield, Clemente, Paul Waner, Tony Gwynn, maybe Vlad Guerrero- all lumped together extremely closely.

        Comment


        • #5
          LF
          1. Stan Musial
          2. Barry Bonds
          3. Ted Williams
          4. Ed Delahanty
          5. Pete Rose

          1-3 are all a near photo finish.
          4-5 are about tied as well.

          CF
          1. Ty Cobb
          2. Willie Mays
          3. Tris Speaker
          4. Mickey Mantle
          5. Joe DiMaggio

          Speaker and Mantle are about even.

          RF
          1. Babe Ruth
          2. Hank Aaron
          3. Frank Robinson
          4. Mel Ott
          5. Sam Crawford or Paul Waner
          HM. Tony Gwynn

          Crawford and Waner are so close, I listed them both in the 5 slot.
          Since Gwynn is nearly right there with Crawford and Waner, I gave RF an HM slot.

          Comment


          • #6
            Bonds - Assuming a natural, healthy decline after 1998, a great power/speed combo who compiled numbers. All-around talent.
            Williams - Not a myth....terrible defense was masked by Fenway and baserunning was below par, but the offense is out of this world thanks in part to alteration of Fenway.
            Henderson - Incredible and under appreciated career on both offense and defense. Gets downplayed as "just" the greatest leadoff hitter ever
            Musial - Didn't walk enough but didn't strike out much either. Missed at least a 175 OPS+ year to service imo. Steady as they come. In this era, in these parks, many of those 177 triples become HR and he walks more.
            Goslin - Griffith killed his numbers and he was solid in the field. One of the most underrated players in history.

            HM - Shoeless, Delahanty


            Cobb
            Mays
            Speaker
            Mantle
            DiMaggio

            HM - Andruw Jones, Griffey Jr

            Ruth
            Aaron
            Robinson
            Gwynn
            Kaline

            HM - Reggie, P Waner, Heilmann, Ott
            Last edited by Sultan_1895-1948; 12-16-2012, 08:43 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              LF
              Williams
              Bonds
              Musial
              Henderson
              Yaz

              CF
              Mays
              Cobb
              Mantle
              Speaker
              DiMaggio

              RF
              Ruth
              Aaron
              Ott-I know but when I did my rankings he bested F-Rob, in peak and career, I could LQ or give a home/road discount
              Robinson
              Kaline

              Comment


              • #8
                Everyone's rankings so far adhere closely to my annual "Top ten by position" poll, so I won't bother posting its results. For myself:

                Barry Bonds-Too complete to be denied. Even on steroids, his hitting was unstoppable (73 homers in 476 AB while facing reluctant pitchers who nibbled at the corners). However, his use only places him slightly ahead of...
                Ted Williams-greatest natural hitter of 'em all. Poor baserunner, pretty good arm and learned the quick relay off Fenway's left field wall. Still, limited range and actual glove skill hurt him.
                Stan Musial-Second only to Williams as the natural-hitting LFers. Better fielder and baserunner, offense a bit lesser.
                Carl Yaz-Fantastic hitter and fielder in a tough era. Due to park adjustments, could fall behind...
                Rickey Henderson-master of the run scored through his walking and base stealing. Considerable power and glove.

                Babe Ruth
                Hank Aaron- also a speedy fielder with a great arm
                Frank Robinson- Same era as Aaron, but hitting and speed just a bit below. Perhaps a better arm
                Mel Ott- Helped by the Polo Grounds, favorable to pull hitters.
                Either Sam Crawford or Al Kaline. I'll figure it out when the rankings affect results

                Willie Mays-I joined this site with my namesake being ahead, but over the years I've come to realize I can't deny Mays, though putting Cobb ahead is certainly reasonable. My internal battle has shifted from Mays vs. Cobb to Mays vs. Ruth.
                Ty Cobb
                Tris Speaker- Five-tool wonder shamefully not the best in his time despite being third all-time.
                Mickey Mantle- Still below Speaker for me, but most put him ahead
                Joe DiMaggio- everything you want except longevity. Then again, missed war years
                "Allen Sutton Sothoron pitched his initials off today."--1920s article

                Comment


                • #9
                  LF
                  1 Bonds
                  2 Williams
                  3 Musial
                  4 Henderson
                  5 Ramirez

                  CF
                  1 Cobb
                  2 Mantle
                  3 Mays
                  4 Dimaggio
                  5 Speaker

                  RF
                  1 Ruth
                  2 Aaron
                  3 Robinson
                  4 Ott
                  5 Clemente

                  I'm very surprised no one has listed Roberto Clemente - even as an honorable mention. Do people really consider Reggie Jackson the superior player? Clemente was miles better defensively and leads Reggie by more than 20 WAR.
                  Last edited by GiambiJuice; 12-17-2012, 07:39 AM.
                  My top 10 players:

                  1. Babe Ruth
                  2. Barry Bonds
                  3. Ty Cobb
                  4. Ted Williams
                  5. Willie Mays
                  6. Alex Rodriguez
                  7. Hank Aaron
                  8. Honus Wagner
                  9. Lou Gehrig
                  10. Mickey Mantle

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Left Field:

                    Ted Williams
                    Barry Bonds
                    Stan Musial
                    Rickey Henderson
                    Ken Williams [nice to get a forgotten sleeper from the St. Louis Browns]

                    Center Field:

                    Willie Mays
                    Ty Cobb
                    Joe DiMaggio
                    Tris Speaker
                    Mickey Mantle

                    Right Field:

                    Babe Ruth
                    Hank Aaron
                    Frank Robinson
                    Mel Ott
                    Larry Walker

                    Right Field, slot 5 was the toughest of all, with Larry Walker being held up to the Coors factor. Then we have a slugger like Harry Heilmann [with indifferent defense]; Ichiro Suzuki and Tony Gwynn, maybe the best discounted duo for value all-around RF; Harry Hooper, early defensive star, with cannon; Enos Slaughter; Dwight Evans; Al Kaline and Roberto Clemente for starters.

                    Guess I'll keep the 5 I named. Tony Gwynn would be #6.
                    Last edited by leewileyfan; 12-17-2012, 10:38 AM. Reason: update

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by dgarza View Post

                      RF
                      1. Babe Ruth
                      2. Hank Aaron
                      3. Frank Robinson
                      4. Mel Ott
                      5. Sam Crawford or Paul Waner
                      HM. Tony Gwynn

                      Crawford and Waner are so close, I listed them both in the 5 slot.
                      Since Gwynn is nearly right there with Crawford and Waner, I gave RF an HM slot.
                      Since this is just listing of MLB RFs, I did not include Ichiro Suzuki. But if I could have added his MLB+Japan play, he might be up in this realm.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Minimum 1000 major league games at said position:

                        LF:

                        Bonds
                        Williams
                        Henderson
                        Musial
                        Yastrzemski

                        CF:

                        Mays
                        Cobb
                        Speaker
                        Mantle
                        DiMaggio

                        RF:

                        Ruth
                        Aaron
                        Robinson
                        Ott
                        Clemente

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I never thought of Ty Cobb as a CF. He is only verified as a CF in 1073 of 2934 games in the outfield. In the 1907, 08 and 09 WS, Cobb played every game in right and Crawford played every game in center. That's how I thought that it was. I'd like to more verification that CF was his dominant position.
                          This week's Giant

                          #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Tyrus4189Cobb View Post
                            Willie Mays-I joined this site with my namesake being ahead, but over the years I've come to realize I can't deny Mays, though putting Cobb ahead is certainly reasonable. My internal battle has shifted from Mays vs. Cobb to Mays vs. Ruth.
                            No internal battle needed. Sleep well at night my friend because there is nothing to seriously contemplate in that comparison. The grand canyon sized gap in offensive, combined with Ruth being good to very good on the bases and in the field until late in his career, combined with his pitching....and it's really not that close at all. You would have to make such an absurd (even for this site) league quality AND positional (a la little Chris) adjustment to even consider Mays near Ruth.

                            Just for a point of reference, here's Matt's GI, which overrates SB slightly and projects no natural decline for Bonds obviously. But the difference between Mays and Ruth is enormous. Not in the same league. His system shows Mays' defense to be great early on, but he just hung around too long in center, much like Cobb. Musial did the exact opposite, downgrading to positions from which he could still excel as he aged, which kept his defensive stats solid throughout.

                            I'm a proponent of a handedness % boost to stats, depending on the number of righties in the league, or faced during careers. I'm just not smart enough to do such a thing. Even with that adjustment, it's lasagna vs. ravioli.

                            Originally posted by SABR Matt View Post
                            By the GI Method, your top 25:
                            Code:
                            First	Last    	HOF	Rank	Ps-Rank	Career	Rate	Mastery	TOTAL	Ps
                            Babe	Ruth    	Y	1	1	323.43	316.42	318.53	958.39	RF
                            Ty	Cobb    	Y	2	1	312.85	277.72	247.87	838.44	CF
                            Barry	Bonds   	A	3	1	292.47	275.35	237.36	805.18	LF
                            Ted	Williams	Y	4	2	260.70	262.62	238.49	761.80	LF
                            Rickey	Henderson	A	5	3	285.40	255.58	214.37	755.35	LF
                            Honus	Wagner  	Y	6	1	273.56	249.95	221.21	744.73	SS
                            Tris	Speaker 	Y	7	2	279.44	254.37	180.00	713.81	CF
                            Stan	Musial  	Y	8	4	265.02	239.14	206.23	710.39	LF
                            Willie	Mays    	Y	9	3	277.64	247.58	160.07	685.29	CF
                            Mickey	Mantle  	Y	10	4	233.02	231.28	197.15	661.45	CF
                            Hank	Aaron   	Y	11	2	267.08	229.43	150.12	646.62	RF
                            Rogers	Hornsby 	Y	12	1	219.49	220.93	197.22	637.65	2B
                            Eddie	Collins 	Y	13	2	250.74	224.79	150.30	625.83	2B
                            Lou	Gehrig  	Y	14	1	208.34	209.37	166.70	584.41	1B
                            Frank	Robinson	Y	15	3	219.89	204.73	151.62	576.23	RF
                            Nap	Lajoie  	Y	16	3	211.82	200.22	158.45	570.49	2B
                            Joe	Morgan  	Y	17	4	215.36	198.62	148.59	562.57	2B
                            Mel	Ott     	Y	18	4	218.06	202.57	139.94	560.56	RF
                            Billy	Hamilton	Y	19	5	168.96	190.54	178.57	538.07	CF
                            Jimmie	Foxx    	Y	20	2	188.40	189.18	156.18	533.76	1B
                            Frank	Thomas  	A	21	3	169.70	189.71	164.01	523.42	1B
                            Walter	Johnson 	Y	22	1	189.23	172.07	148.47	509.77	SP
                            Carl	Yastrzemski	Y	23	5	205.31	171.46	128.41	505.18	LF
                            Al	Kaline   	Y	24	5	196.48	180.09	124.93	501.50	RF
                            Ed	Delahanty	Y	25	6	161.46	173.63	165.23	500.32	LF
                            Not trying to derail this thread Tyrus, just responding to your comment
                            Last edited by Sultan_1895-1948; 12-17-2012, 08:22 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Lf
                              1. Tw
                              2. Sm
                              3. Bb
                              4. Rh
                              5. Jj
                              hm: Cy, fr, as

                              cf:
                              1. Wm
                              2. Tc
                              3. Ts
                              4. Mm
                              5. Kg
                              hm: Jd, ds, bh

                              rf:
                              1. Br
                              2. Ha
                              3. Sc
                              4. Mo
                              5. Is
                              hm: Tg, rc, rj
                              Great pitching always beat great hitting. Clutch hitting always beat great pitching.

                              Comment

                              Ad Widget

                              Collapse
                              Working...
                              X