Eddie Collins vs. Alex Rodriguez

[Cowtipper]

These apples vs. oranges comparisons are kind of fun in my opinion. So let's do one.

Alex Rodriguez is one of the greatest power hitters of this generation, hitting .300 with 2,901 hits, 512 doubles, 647 home runs and 1,950 RBI. He has led the league in runs five times, home runs five times, slugging percentage four times and RBI twice, and he has six times eclipsed the 20 stolen base mark.

Eddie Collins, on the other hand, may be the greatest second baseman ever. He hit .333 with 3,315 hits, 1,821 runs scored and 741 stolen bases. He led the league in runs three times and steals four times, while posting a 142 OPS+ and a .424 on-base percentage. He never struck out more than 41 times in a season, though he walked 80 or more times on nine occasions.

Two very great players--but which one is better?

[PVNICK]

I went A Rod, but as soon as I did I had a recollection that Collins was considered a winner whereas ARod has been dogged with quite the opposite tag. On the other hand Collins was a college guy at a time when that was uncommon and called "Cocky Collins" so maybe they have more in common. Or maybe I am just rambling.

[GiambiJuice]

32398708.jpg

........................

[Cowtipper]

I can normally make my decisions pretty quick on these matchups, but I'm not sure about this one. Eddie Collins could be considered the best second baseman ever. Has Alex Rodriguez ever been considered the "best ever" at either of his positions?

[willshad]

I can normally make my decisions pretty quick on these matchups, but I'm not sure about this one. Eddie Collins could be considered the best second baseman ever. Has Alex Rodriguez ever been considered the "best ever" at either of his positions?

1) The vast majority of people would choose Hornsby as the #1 second baseman. A few would pick Morgan.

2) How can you be the best at any single position, when you spend half your career at one position and half at another? I think the fact that he can realistically be considered top five at TWO different positions is at least as impressive.

[Cowtipper]

1) The vast majority of people would choose Hornsby as the #1 second baseman. A few would pick Morgan.

That's why I used the more ambiguous "could be" rather than "is".

2) How can you be the best at any single position, when you spend half your career at one position and half at another? I think the fact that he can realistically be considered top five at TWO different positions is at least as impressive.

Is Rodriguez really a top five at either position? I'm not so sure about that.

[GiambiJuice]

That's why I used the more ambiguous "could be" rather than "is".


Is Rodriguez really a top five at either position? I'm not so sure about that.

Is there really a question as to whether A-Rod is a top 5 shortstop?

3rd base is debatable and I don't think there's room for A-Rod in the top 5. I'd say the top 5 are Boggs, Brett, Mathews, C. Jones, and Schmidt - followed by Santo and Brooks Robinson. Even Scott Rolen may be ahead of A-Rod as a 3rd baseman.

[Cowtipper]

I was going to use Alex Rodriguez's defensive inabilities as an argument against his being placed in the top five for shortstops, but I guess he was better than I thought...his defensive WAR (with all its flaws) is over 11 and he won a couple Gold Gloves.

His time at shortstop was rather short, however - only eight full years. It was a legendary eight years to be sure, but longevity is something to value, too.

[brett]

I was going to use Alex Rodriguez defensive inabilities as an argument against his being placed in the top five for shortstops, but I guess he was better than I thought...his defensive WAR (with all its flaws) is over 11 and he won a couple Gold Gloves.

His time at shortstop was rather short, however - only full eight years. It was a legendary eight years to be sure, but longevity is something to value, too.

Remember that D-war now includes positional "value". A-Rod is about 4.8 defensive wins above his position, and 7 positional value "wins" which really is due to players at his positions being 7 wins worse on offense. He was a solid defensive SS, a shade above average.

[brett]

I think WAR underrates Collins defense compared to other systems I have seen. I think it also underrates good baserunners from his era because some of their CS were not their fault but on the front of hit and runs that failed and so their CS would go down if the hit and run had been used more appropriately, or another way to see it is that an average CS was not as bad for the runner, but some of the negative value should have gone to guys missing on sacs or hit and runs.

Collins put up value even after the live ball came in, but in a way he benefited similarly to early live ball sluggers because the rest of the league did not take full advantage of the live ball yet.

Without a steroid consideration it is A-Rod. I think that he used though, and probably since highschool. Currently I rate Collins within the top 15 and A-Rod about 22-25 with a steroid deduction. I think I have to have him in my top 25. He just produced too much actual value to not be top 25.