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George Sisler vs. John Olerud

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  • #16
    Who--Olerud or Sisler? Sisler's raw totals are def. in the Manush area, if you will-but clearly George's peak was much higher.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Cowtipper View Post
      He seems a bit Manush if you ask me.
      In a memoir, Roger Angel writes of his childhood fascination with players' names--Mel Ott, Goose Goslin, etc. He said Heinie Manush made him think of someone sitting in a bowl of breakfast cereal.
      Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Matthew C. View Post
        I never said that was the only reason I had him ahead - I just didn't list all of them.
        I am saying that I am not sure that a good peak is a good thing given that two guys are otherwise equal in value. I mean perhaps its not a reason at all, unless it identifies a talent level that got lost due to extraneous circumstances.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by brett View Post
          I am saying that I am not sure that a good peak is a good thing given that two guys are otherwise equal in value. I mean perhaps its not a reason at all, unless it identifies a talent level that got lost due to extraneous circumstances.
          Right - it may be more about the "luck" of how the events were distributed or varied around the players true talent mean more than anything else, but in this case, the string of very seasons showed that Sisler had a lot more ability than Olerud - the injury really did him in.
          1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

          1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

          1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


          The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
          The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

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          • #20
            John Olerud is one of only a handful of players to have not one but two fluke seasons.

            He played exactly 1000 games after his second fluke season and hit .287

            Between fluke seasons he hit .289

            Before his first fluke season he hit .269

            And the Fan ELO Rater over at baseball-reference has him at #146 with Cesar Cedeno, Ralph Kiner, and Kirby Puckett

            I know Sisler was overrated for years (number #75 curently), but his record is better than Olerud's.
            Your Second Base Coach
            Garvey, Lopes, Russell, and Cey started 833 times and the Dodgers went 498-335, for a .598 winning percentage. That’s equal to a team going 97-65 over a season. On those occasions when at least one of them missed his start, the Dodgers were 306-267-1, which is a .534 clip. That works out to a team going 87-75. So having all four of them added 10 wins to the Dodgers per year.
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5hCIvMule0

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Second Base Coach View Post
              John Olerud is one of only a handful of players to have not one but two fluke seasons.

              He played exactly 1000 games after his second fluke season and hit .287

              Between fluke seasons he hit .289

              Before his first fluke season he hit .269

              And the Fan ELO Rater over at baseball-reference has him at #146 with Cesar Cedeno, Ralph Kiner, and Kirby Puckett

              I know Sisler was overrated for years (number #75 curently), but his record is better than Olerud's.
              1993 and 1999 were certainly outliers, but I think it's a bit unfair to Olerud to call them flukes. Olerud had a very solid career. He had plenty of other very good seasons (albeit not as good as 1993 and 1998). Olerud had a 10-year peak from 1993-2002, hitting .307/.414/.487/.901. Again his other seasons didn't quite approach 1993 and 1998, but several of them were excellent. During his 10-year peak he averaged over 100 walks per 162 games, to go with 21 HR, 97 RBI and 41 doubles - along with Gold Glove defense.

              A fluke is Brady Anderson in 1996 or Davey Johnson in 1973. Olerud was just an excellent hitter with two spectacular seasons and a bunch of merely very good seasons.

              With that being said, I'm going with Sisler.
              Last edited by GiambiJuice; 12-31-2012, 10:01 PM.
              My top 10 players:

              1. Babe Ruth
              2. Barry Bonds
              3. Ty Cobb
              4. Ted Williams
              5. Willie Mays
              6. Alex Rodriguez
              7. Hank Aaron
              8. Honus Wagner
              9. Lou Gehrig
              10. Mickey Mantle

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              • #22
                Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
                1993 and 1999 were certainly outliers, but I think it's a bit unfair to Olerud to call them flukes. Olerud had a very solid career. He had plenty of other very good seasons (albeit not as good as 1993 and 1998). Olerud had a 10-year peak from 1993-2002, hitting .307/.414/.487/.901. Again his other seasons didn't quite approach 1993 and 1998, but several of them were excellent. During his 10-year peak he averaged over 100 walks per 162 games, to go with 21 HR, 97 RBI and 41 doubles - along with Gold Glove defense.

                A fluke is Brady Anderson in 1996 or Davey Johnson in 1973. Olerud was just an excellent hitter with two spectacular seasons and a bunch of merely very good seasons.

                With that being said, I'm going with Sisler.
                Olerud's problem is that with the ridiculous numbers being put up during his career, he just kinda seemed another guy. He only played in 2 all star games, and only received MVP votes in 2 seasons....only finishing twelfth in his second 'fluke' season. if he played now, he may be regarded as one of the top hitters in the game.

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                • #23
                  After adjusting for era, I have Sisler's 7 year hitting peak just squeaking by Olerud's hitting 7 year peak. Sisler was a better runner and defensive first baseman, so Sisler wins the 7 year peak battle by a decent margin. However, Olerud played MUCH longer. Olerud gets my vote here. Had Sisler had a 10-11 year peak, then I'd put him over Olerud.

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                  • #24
                    Maybe I'll start an Olerud vs Garvey thread. Sisler had a pretty impressive win here.
                    My top 10 players:

                    1. Babe Ruth
                    2. Barry Bonds
                    3. Ty Cobb
                    4. Ted Williams
                    5. Willie Mays
                    6. Alex Rodriguez
                    7. Hank Aaron
                    8. Honus Wagner
                    9. Lou Gehrig
                    10. Mickey Mantle

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                    • #25
                      1. GiambiJuice...you are an evil human being.
                      2. I like Olerud...but Sisler wins this with room to spare.
                      1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

                      1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

                      1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


                      The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
                      The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        My latest rankings have Olerud above Sisler, if I'm not mistaken. (My PC is undergoing surgery so my rankings file is on a hard drive that I don't have on this one, therefore, I can't say this for sure). But gut tells me that Sislers was better than Olerud. Now Olerud vs. Garvey or Sisler vs. Hernandez...that would be interesting.
                        "I am not too serious about anything. I believe you have to enjoy yourself to get the most out of your ability."-
                        George Brett

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by willshad View Post
                          Sisler wins this one easily, mainly because he had 5 seasons that can be classified as 'great', and Olerud really only had 2. it's clear that Sisler's 'normal' level of play was superior to Olerud.

                          I really don't get how someone can consider Olerud HOF worthy. He is basically Norm Cash, because his one amazing early season set high standards that he could not come close to for the remainder of his career. if you take out 1993, he is Mark Grace.
                          Agree Sisler by a mile, it's kinda like comparing Jimmy Foxx to Walt Dropo who in 1950 did have 1 Hall of Fame type season

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                          • #28
                            Seriously??

                            It's Sisler by light years.
                            This week's Giant

                            #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

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                            • #29
                              Sisler by a country mile.
                              "No matter how great you were once upon a time — the years go by, and men forget,” - W. A. Phelon in Baseball Magazine in 1915. “Ross Barnes, forty years ago, was as great as Cobb or Wagner ever dared to be. Had scores been kept then as now, he would have seemed incomparably marvelous.”

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                              • #30
                                Big Olerud fan, but Sisler here.
                                “There can be no higher law in journalism than to tell the truth and to shame the devil.” Walter Lippmann

                                "Fill in any figure you want for that boy (Mantle). Whatever the figure, it's a deal." - Branch Rickey

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