Edgar Martinez vs Ichiro suzuki

[dominik]

Inspired by Cowtippers apples and oranges threads I want to compare two of the greatest mariners ever.

Edgar easily beats Ichiro in hitting:
.312, .418, .515 147 OPS+

.322, .365, .419 113 OPS+

however in position (martinez mostly played at DH), defense and running ichiro has the edge. also edgar played in a better hitters park and likely also a better hitting era.

using WAR edgar has a slight edge (64.4 vs 54.6). however we have to consider ichiros late start, had he started at age 22-23 (which is likely given his player type and results in japan) he would have finished likely with 70+ WAR.

Who's your pick.

[GiambiJuice]

As much as I HATE to admit this, Ichiro's defense and baserunning give him the edge over Edgar Martinez. I've never been a fan of Ichiro and Edgar has always been one of my favorites so it pains me to vote this way.

[leecemark]

--I've got to give the edge to Ichiro too. For most of his career Edgar had zero defensive value and negative baserunning value while Ichiro was always amoung the best at both. Edgar's hitting advantage is almost enough to make up for it, but not quite.

[filihok]

Depends on what question you are asking.

Who's better?

Who IS better?
Who WAS better?

Who is better? Right now, in the present - it is certainly Ichiro.
Who was better? Who had the better major league career? Who was the more talented player?

Since you talk about Ichiro's time in Japan I'll assume that you mean who had the better baseball career.

also edgar played in a better hitters park and likely also a better hitting era.

This is true, of course, but is factored into OPS+ and wRC+
Ichiro wRC+ = 110
Edgar wRC+ = 148

Using FanGraphs' WAR breakdown:
Ichiro: 142 batting runs, 68 base running runs, 133 fielding runs, 291 replacement runs, -72 positional runs. 562 runs above replacement in 8723 PA's
Edgar: 572 batting runs, -21 base running runs, 16 fielding runs, 290 replacement runs, -150 positional runs. 707 runs above replacement in 8672 PA's

Both players started playing full time in the majors at 27 and have almost equal amounts of playing time in the majors.

But what happened before the majors? Ichiro was becoming one of the biggest stars in the history of Japanese baseball. Edgar was toiling in the minor leagues.
Ichrio hit .359 in Japan with 1242 hits, 117 HR and 196 SB in 3400 AB's (PA data not easily available)
Edgar hit .300 in the minors with 692 hits, 46 HR and 30 steals in 2300 AB's

The Japanese league is usually considered to be between AAA and AA in terms of quality of talent. Edgar spent the majority of his minor league time in AA and AAA (1800 AB's).

Ichiro was the better player early in his career. Edgar had the better peak.

I think that it comes down to how Ichiro finishes his career. If his last two seasons (2011 & 2012) are what his future holds then Edgar will go down as the better player. If Ichiro can finish strong then he has a chance to overtake Martinez.

[dominik]

@filihok
I'm obviously asking who had a better career since edgar is about 50 now and ichiro looks like he is mostly done.

I know that both hit the league at about the same age however ichiro had more "young players skills"and speedsters tend to be called up early even with questionable hitting.

jap league is of course like minor league in terms of quality however ichiro put up the same stats at age 20 like he did at 26. so if he was MLB ready at age 27 he likely would have been at 21.

I think it is a conservative estimation to asume ichiro would have been a full time player at age 23 (maybe he would even have done a trout or harper (since his skills don't need a lot of time to develope and speedy outfielders often make it early).

but even if you are conservative it is pretty reasonable to asume that ichiro would have at least 15-20 WAR if not more entering his age 27 season. however we don't know if that would have shortened his career in the back end as his body would have taken even more beating and his style is not well suited for aging anyway.

egar probably should have get called up earlier too but for some reason he played 3 part time seasons at the beginning of his career. but still ichiro would have very likely made the splash earlier then him because speedy OFers often get the call earlier then 1B/DH types who are often blocked. on the flip side edgar of course had a much better back end of his career.

[filihok]

Using FanGraphs' WAR Graphs,

You can see just how close the two players are. Especially the 2nd graphs which compares WAR by age.

IchiroEdgar.jpg

[Cowtipper]

Luckily there is more to player analysis than one constantly-altered statistic.

[filihok]

Luckily there is more to player analysis than one constantly-altered statistic.

But, sir, your lawn is so pretty and green

[dominik]

I do think this is relatively close. although ichiro will make the hall on first ballot and edgar will have a hard time to get in. probably unfair towards edgar.

[The Commissioner]

I've never been one to dimsiss Edgar for being a DH. I don't beleive he should lose as much Hall consideration as he does because of that. However, Ichiro's fielding ability gives him the edge here for me. IMHO, they are both Hall of Famers. Edgar's got the edge on power, Ichiro on the basepaths. However, when all is said and done, Ichiro should wind up proving, if he hasn't already, to be one of the top ten right fielders ever.

[dominik]

I've never been one to dimsiss Edgar for being a DH. I don't beleive he should lose as much Hall consideration as he does because of that. However, Ichiro's fielding ability gives him the edge here for me. IMHO, they are both Hall of Famers. Edgar's got the edge on power, Ichiro on the basepaths. However, when all is said and done, Ichiro should wind up proving, if he hasn't already, to be one of the top ten right fielders ever.

that is a pretty bold statement considering how many great players played right.

I do think that ichiro was underrated by the first generation of sabermetrics guys (the moneyball guys who mostly focused on OBP and OPS+) and modern stats do value his other skills more but I don't see him as a top10 guy. he still is a corner OF guy (although he played well in center the year he played there) and there have been some pretty damn good hitters in RF in the past.

[GiambiJuice]

Ichiro's had a great career, but let's not go overboard and call him a top 10 right fielder. He clearly isn't one. Borderline top-20 maybe.

[filihok]

Ichiro's had a great career, but let's not go overboard and call him a top 10 right fielder. He clearly isn't one. Borderline top-20 maybe.

Ichiro's career WAR, accumulated mostly as a RFer, places him 34th

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphswd.aspx?teamid=0&pos=RF&season=2012&season1=1871&grid=50

If we consider the time he was in Japan, not compiling MLB WAR, and 'give' him an extra 5 seasons at 5 WAR he moves up to 9th all time.

[GiambiJuice]

Ichiro's career WAR, accumulated mostly as a RFer, places him 34th

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphswd.aspx?teamid=0&pos=RF&season=2012&season1=1871&grid=50

If we consider the time he was in Japan, not compiling MLB WAR, and 'give' him an extra 5 seasons at 5 WAR he moves up to 9th all time.

There's something sketchy about that list. For example, why is Manny Ramirez listed as a RFer? He played more games in LF than in RF.

[filihok]

There's something sketchy about that list. For example, why is Manny Ramirez listed as a RFer? He played more games in LF than in RF.

Manny's career innings in RF: 7766
Manny's career innings in LF: 8568

He was fairly evenly split.

I'm not sure exactly how FanGraphs separates players on their WAR Grid pages. But Manny certainly played a considerable amount of time in RF