Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Edgar Martinez vs Ichiro suzuki

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • TomBodet
    replied
    This one I went w Edgar, but Ichiro's a great player too.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Commissioner
    replied
    Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
    Ichiro's had a great career, but let's not go overboard and call him a top 10 right fielder. He clearly isn't one. Borderline top-20 maybe.
    I don't know that calling him one of the ten best RF ever is that much of a stretch. Of course calling anyone the #1 anything or in the top 10 or top 100 is a purely subjective observation. I do feel that most of us would pretty much agree on who the top 5 RFers are, albeit we might disagree on their order (Aaron, Clemente, Ott, Robinson, Ruth). It would be tough to knock out one of them for Ichiro. However, for a top 10 spot? I'd argue that even taking into account his batting average, two batting titles, MVP Award, ten consecutive 200+ seasons, 7 times leading the league in hits, 8 consecutive 100+ run seasons, the single season record for hits those numbers alone are probably not enough to push him into the top ten. However, when you add his prowess on the basepaths, the case becomes more compelling. When you factor how great he has been at fielding his position as well, though, I do belive he does have a strong case for entering the top 10. I would have no objections to anyone placing Paul Waner, Sam Crawford, Al Kaline, Heilmann, or Reggie, just to name a few, ahead of him. I'm just saying that decent arguments can be made why he deserves a spot in the top ten along with, or ahead of, many of them. I'm not sure if I'd have Ichiro in my personal top ten (unlike many here, I have never compiled such lists), but no, being considered in the top 10 right fielders of all-time does not seem that overboard.

    Leave a comment:


  • White Knight
    replied
    Originally posted by filihok View Post
    The Japanese league is usually considered to be between AAA and AA in terms of quality of talent. Edgar spent the majority of his minor league time in AA and AAA (1800 AB's).

    Ichiro was the better player early in his career. Edgar had the better peak.

    I think that it comes down to how Ichiro finishes his career. If his last two seasons (2011 & 2012) are what his future holds then Edgar will go down as the better player. If Ichiro can finish strong then he has a chance to overtake Martinez.
    Two things:

    1) The Japanese League is considered to be between AA and AAA? I thought it was between AAA and the Majors?

    2) You say Martinez is better. Fair enough. But why is Ichiro a shoe-in for the HOF, while Edgar never made it? Even if you take away his Japan stats and make believe he came out of the Minors in 2001, he's still a HOFer.

    Leave a comment:


  • GiambiJuice
    replied
    Originally posted by filihok View Post
    So, A-Rod shouldn't be considered a top third baseman because he was also good enough to play SS and the Yankees had Derek Jeter?

    I guess.

    A-Rod is one of the top players in MLB history. He played 3B and SS. That's good enough for me.
    Fair enough.

    ....

    Leave a comment:


  • filihok
    replied
    Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
    Not top 2. He's outside the top 5 (probably not in the top 7) at 3rd base unless we consider his career totals - most of which were accumulated at short stop.
    So, A-Rod shouldn't be considered a top third baseman because he was also good enough to play SS and the Yankees had Derek Jeter?

    I guess.

    A-Rod is one of the top players in MLB history. He played 3B and SS. That's good enough for me.

    Leave a comment:


  • GiambiJuice
    replied
    Originally posted by filihok View Post


    Wasn't A-Rod a top player at 2 different positions?
    Not top 2. He's outside the top 5 (probably not in the top 7) at 3rd base unless we consider his career totals - most of which were accumulated at short stop.

    Leave a comment:


  • filihok
    replied
    Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
    True, it's close. But I don't think it's fair to rank him as a RFer when he didn't play the majority of his career there.
    Then take him out. Problem solved.

    Would you consider A-Rod's career totals when ranking him as a 3rd baseman? That would put at at #1 or #2 all time at the position. And since he played even more games at SS, we would take his career totals into account when we rank him as a SS as well. So now he's a top 2 player at two different positions...
    Wasn't A-Rod a top player at 2 different positions?

    Leave a comment:


  • GiambiJuice
    replied
    Originally posted by filihok View Post
    Manny's career innings in RF: 7766
    Manny's career innings in LF: 8568

    He was fairly evenly split.

    I'm not sure exactly how FanGraphs separates players on their WAR Grid pages. But Manny certainly played a considerable amount of time in RF
    True, it's close. But I don't think it's fair to rank him as a RFer when he didn't play the majority of his career there. Would you consider A-Rod's career totals when ranking him as a 3rd baseman? That would put at at #1 or #2 all time at the position. And since he played even more games at SS, we would take his career totals into account when we rank him as a SS as well. So now he's a top 2 player at two different positions...

    I think we need to pick one position (wherever a player played the most games) and stick with it.
    Last edited by GiambiJuice; 12-28-2012, 09:00 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • filihok
    replied
    Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
    There's something sketchy about that list. For example, why is Manny Ramirez listed as a RFer? He played more games in LF than in RF.
    Manny's career innings in RF: 7766
    Manny's career innings in LF: 8568

    He was fairly evenly split.

    I'm not sure exactly how FanGraphs separates players on their WAR Grid pages. But Manny certainly played a considerable amount of time in RF

    Leave a comment:


  • GiambiJuice
    replied
    Originally posted by filihok View Post
    Ichiro's career WAR, accumulated mostly as a RFer, places him 34th

    http://www.fangraphs.com/graphswd.as...1=1871&grid=50

    If we consider the time he was in Japan, not compiling MLB WAR, and 'give' him an extra 5 seasons at 5 WAR he moves up to 9th all time.
    There's something sketchy about that list. For example, why is Manny Ramirez listed as a RFer? He played more games in LF than in RF.

    Leave a comment:


  • filihok
    replied
    Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
    Ichiro's had a great career, but let's not go overboard and call him a top 10 right fielder. He clearly isn't one. Borderline top-20 maybe.
    Ichiro's career WAR, accumulated mostly as a RFer, places him 34th

    http://www.fangraphs.com/graphswd.as...1=1871&grid=50

    If we consider the time he was in Japan, not compiling MLB WAR, and 'give' him an extra 5 seasons at 5 WAR he moves up to 9th all time.

    Leave a comment:


  • GiambiJuice
    replied
    Ichiro's had a great career, but let's not go overboard and call him a top 10 right fielder. He clearly isn't one. Borderline top-20 maybe.
    Last edited by GiambiJuice; 12-28-2012, 08:02 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • dominik
    replied
    Originally posted by The Commissioner View Post
    I've never been one to dimsiss Edgar for being a DH. I don't beleive he should lose as much Hall consideration as he does because of that. However, Ichiro's fielding ability gives him the edge here for me. IMHO, they are both Hall of Famers. Edgar's got the edge on power, Ichiro on the basepaths. However, when all is said and done, Ichiro should wind up proving, if he hasn't already, to be one of the top ten right fielders ever.
    that is a pretty bold statement considering how many great players played right.

    I do think that ichiro was underrated by the first generation of sabermetrics guys (the moneyball guys who mostly focused on OBP and OPS+) and modern stats do value his other skills more but I don't see him as a top10 guy. he still is a corner OF guy (although he played well in center the year he played there) and there have been some pretty damn good hitters in RF in the past.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Commissioner
    replied
    I've never been one to dimsiss Edgar for being a DH. I don't beleive he should lose as much Hall consideration as he does because of that. However, Ichiro's fielding ability gives him the edge here for me. IMHO, they are both Hall of Famers. Edgar's got the edge on power, Ichiro on the basepaths. However, when all is said and done, Ichiro should wind up proving, if he hasn't already, to be one of the top ten right fielders ever.

    Leave a comment:


  • dominik
    replied
    I do think this is relatively close. although ichiro will make the hall on first ballot and edgar will have a hard time to get in. probably unfair towards edgar.

    Leave a comment:

Ad Widget

Collapse
Working...
X