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Okay---Kenny Boyer.

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  • Okay---Kenny Boyer.

    He's not in the Hall. He's not likely to GO into the hall. But he's really comparable to Santo, Brooks, Bando, etc. What did he do wrong?? :choke:

  • #2
    He fizzled out. He was arguably the best thirdbaseman in the game for several years, but his numbers dropped off after his 1964 MVP season. Within three years, he was a light-hitting first baseman. He had two 100-RBI years and 7 others with 90 or more but less than 100. People today looking at his offensive record just don't see a great player. He has the nine gold gloves, but I still don't think there is a fielding metric that shows how great he was on defense.

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    • #3
      According to FanGraphs' WAR:
      PLAYER: Batting Runs, BaseRunning, Fielding, Positional, Replacement, Runs Above Replacement
      Boyer: 224, -6, 73, 33, 276, 599

      Santo: 338, -5, 22, 48, 313, 715
      Bando: 228, 0, 36, 34, 276, 574
      Robinson: 133, 0, 294, 66, 393, 886

      He didn't hit as well as Santo.
      He wasn't as good defensively as Robinson
      He didn't play as much as either.

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      • #4
        To me there's room for Boyer still--but as a Big Hall Guy(TM), I Would say that regardless. He's in between Brooks and Santo, that does sound about right. He is a classic short shrift case--put him in LA or NY and maybe he's in.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by filihok View Post
          He wasn't as good defensively as Robinson.
          I think if most people were given the choice of Boyer or Robinson over an extended period, they would take Boyer. There is some nice footage of Robinson making great plays, but if he was better than Boyer, it wasn't by much.

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          • #6
            Yes, if you listen to McCarver, Everyone on that Cards team was the equivalent to Frank White--but I agree-Boyer's glove was terrific.

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            • #7
              Boyer didn't play that long (only 12 seasons), and didn't have a very high peak; One 7.7 WAR season.

              Santo had 4 seasons better than Boyer's best.
              Robinson had 3 seasons better than Boyer's best and played 800 more games
              Bando, I wouldn't have in the hall. His career is similar to Boyer's; one outstanding season and not an exceptionally long career.

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              • #8
                Boyer was an outstanding player. He was very physically talented- strong, coordinated, ran and threw well. He was a CFer at the beginning of his career. He was a terrific defensive third baseman- not at all far behind Brooks Robinson and his brother, Clete.

                Boyer isn't in the HOF mainly because his counting numbers aren't quite high enough- he didn't reach 300 homers, 2000 hits, he didn't have a career BA of .300.

                Boyer's career totals are a little short mainly because he got a late start to his ML career- he was in the service for 2 years during the Korean War. He was a Minor League batting terror, and almost certainly would have reached the big leagues at least 2 years earlier if not for the war.

                He's a grey area guy for me due to his career totals, but he was an outstanding player- there are more than a few worse in the HOF.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by BigRon View Post
                  Boyer was an outstanding player. He was very physically talented- strong, coordinated, ran and threw well. He was a CFer at the beginning of his career. He was a terrific defensive third baseman- not at all far behind Brooks Robinson and his brother, Clete. Boyer's . . . totals are a little short mainly because he got a late start to his ML career- he was in the service for 2 years during the Korean War.

                  He's a grey area guy for me due to his career totals, but he was an outstanding player- there are more than a few worse in the HOF.
                  I really liked Boyer. He's like Kaline or Doby, someone with no holes in his game. Well, I guess you wouldn't ask him to pinch run, but anything else. According to Wikipedia he actually started out in the Cardinals chain as a pitcher. The distribution of his talent across many variables was probably something else that didn't help his recognition.

                  While certainly ready by age 24, he lost a lot at the end, too. Back problems, wikipedia says. He had a decent year at 35, but he was basically through after 33. He was through with his LIFE at 51. I wonder what would have happened if, like DiMaggio, he quit when his level of play plummeted, a mini tragedy instead of a painful soap opera. His last few years' play actually decreased his career value.
                  Last edited by Jackaroo Dave; 12-30-2012, 04:25 PM.
                  Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

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                  • #10
                    By the end of the '60s, when Boyer retired, for 3B, only Mathews hit more HRs.

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                    • #11
                      Ken Boyer was a multi-talented player who was also a good teammate

                      However, the choice of Boyer as MVP in 1964 was one of the weakest choices ever

                      He was arguably the 4th best THIRD BASEMAN in the NL that year

                      driving in Curt Flood and Lou Brock fooled a lot of voters

                      but he could play for me anyday
                      1. The more I learn, the more convinced I am that many players are over-rated due to inflated stats from offensive home parks (and eras)
                      2. Strat-O-Matic Baseball Player, Collector and Hobbyist since 1969, visit my strat site: http://forums.delphiforums.com/GamersParadise
                      3. My table top gaming blog: http://cary333.blogspot.com/

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by filihok View Post
                        According to FanGraphs' WAR:

                        PLAYER: Batting Runs, BaseRunning, Fielding, Positional, Replacement, Runs Above Replacement
                        Boyer: 224, -6, 73, 33, 276, 599
                        Santo: 338, -5, 22, 48, 313, 715
                        Bando: 228, 0, 36, 34, 276, 574
                        Robinson: 133, 0, 294, 66, 393, 886

                        He didn't hit as well as Santo.
                        He wasn't as good defensively as Robinson
                        He didn't play as much as either.
                        Or . . . "He hit better than Robinson, fielded better than Santo, and played as much as Bando."
                        Last edited by Jackaroo Dave; 12-30-2012, 05:32 PM.
                        Indeed the first step toward finding out is to acknowledge you do not satisfactorily know already; so that no blight can so surely arrest all intellectual growth as the blight of cocksureness.--CS Peirce

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Boyer was a great 3B. I would put him in my HOF. He was good enough for long enough.
                          This week's Giant

                          #5 in games played as a Giant with 1721 , Bill Terry

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by TomBodet View Post
                            He's not in the Hall. He's not likely to GO into the hall. But he's really comparable to Santo, Brooks, Bando, etc. What did he do wrong?? :choke:
                            Ken Boyer. Good solid journeyman ballplayer. Never heard anyone refer to him as "Kenny".

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by westsidegrounds View Post
                              Never heard anyone refer to him as "Kenny".
                              He was 'Ken' on baseball cards, but he was often called 'Kenny.'

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