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Carl Yastrzemski's odd career

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  • brett
    replied
    The question for me is not whether Yaz adapted to his park (or Dimaggio who simply could not possibly match his road home run rates at home) but whether Yaz' road rates were negatively affected because he modified his approach. Not every player has a unique park that they can take advantage of. Furthermore, if we have a player's road rates, and they were not negatively affected by a change of approach, they should be sufficient to tell us how good the hitter was.

    George Brett had pretty radical home/road splits through 1979, but his approach clearly hurt him on the road. He developed his hitting style to smash grounders through the astroturf and use his leg to gain bases, but it clearly hurt his road rates on grass, and Royal's stadium was not a big PLUS offensive park overall. The value he gained from a special park was taylor made for players like him and lost him points on the road, but when he started hitting the ball in the air more, he actually was hurt a little by the spacious Royal's stadium (from '82-'93 for sure) and his overall value on the road nearly balanced out by the end of his career.

    I believe that Yaz' road rates were somewhat negatively affected by his home park. I think the same is true of Colorado players. Yaz road OPS+ relative to all road hitters was about 124, versus 130 for his career, and if he lost a little on the road due to approach, he was virtually identical on the road to his career value line.

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  • westsidegrounds
    replied
    Originally posted by willshad View Post
    I just don't like how some players are somehow 'excused' for their huge home/road splits ('he took advantage of his home park!' or 'EVERYONE hits better at home!'), while others are dismissed as products of their home stadium, even if their splits are very similar. Jim Rice's home advantage for his career was about the same as Yaz, and not as extreme as Wade Boggs, and yet he is often dismissed as 'creation of Fenway', while the other two are excused for it. Likewise, Chuck Klein has very similar home/road splits to Ron Santo, and the same situation applies. Seems like a double standard to me.
    Not really. I don't have time to go season by season, but in Santo's best HR year he was 20 at home and 13 on the road. Klein's best HR year he was 29 and 9.

    Leave a comment:


  • PVNICK
    replied
    wow this thread got fascinating and stayed on topic over the weekend. Can I have the ten minutes of my life back? (sarcasm)

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  • Captain Cold Nose
    replied
    Originally posted by GiambiJuice View Post
    Pablo Sandoval in his career has hit .328/.376/.524 at home and .278/.332/.459 on the road. He is obviously just a product of AT&T Park. He's really just a .278 hitter as evidenced by his road rates -- *Roy's head explodes*
    But nobody is calling Sandoval an all-time great. Yaz's home-road splits are a case for him being overrated, just as there are cases for not solely focusing on them as an argument as well as not using just the road numbers as a true indicator of player ability.

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  • GiambiJuice
    replied
    Pablo Sandoval in his career has hit .328/.376/.524 at home and .278/.332/.459 on the road. He is obviously just a product of AT&T Park. He's really just a .278 hitter as evidenced by his road rates -- *Roy's head explodes*

    Leave a comment:


  • Jackaroo Dave
    replied
    Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
    power hitters all lol
    Just to make you happy, Roy, how about A-Rod? When he came to Yankee Stadium in 2004, he did slightly better on the road. Then, except for 2007 and 2009, when his road tOPS was a little higher, he did far better at home, typically about 110 to 90 tOPS+.

    I'll save you the trouble:"Too funny, comparing ARoid to DiMaggio. lol Oh wait, thank you for proving my point."

    I mention Alex not because I think he's comparable to DiMaggio, but to show, for those who need it, not only banjo hitters were able to do better in Yankee Stadium than they did on the road.
    Last edited by Jackaroo Dave; 01-06-2013, 11:23 PM. Reason: Added "lol" for authenticity

    Leave a comment:


  • Jackaroo Dave
    replied
    Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
    and I absolutely LAUGH at posters and fans who rate fans by WAR
    I'm with you there, Roy.
    (Psycho movie soundtrack plays in my head)
    Does anyone have an eleven foot pole?

    Leave a comment:


  • filihok
    replied
    Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
    not here on this thread

    there are MANY posters here who do not like WAR and the reasons are spelled out in numerous threads
    Is WAR perfect? Nope, as is clearly shown by the graph.
    Is it exceptionally accurate? Yes, as is clearly shown by the graph.

    and I absolutely LAUGH at posters and fans who rate fans by WAR
    That's fine. I feel bad for people who don't understand math.


    for instance who is your AS 3B this year =- Joe Blow because he has a 4.2 WAR and Phil Smith only has a 4.0 WAR
    (Psycho movie soundtrack plays in my head)
    I think, thought I'm not sure because you really make no sense here, that you don't understand WAR.

    WAR does not attempt to say who is the better player.
    WAR does measure how much value a player produced

    Leave a comment:


  • 9RoyHobbsRF
    replied
    not here on this thread

    there are MANY posters here who do not like WAR and the reasons are spelled out in numerous threads

    and I absolutely LAUGH at posters and fans who rate fans by WAR


    for instance who is your AS 3B this year =- Joe Blow because he has a 4.2 WAR and Phil Smith only has a 4.0 WAR
    (Psycho movie soundtrack plays in my head)


    Originally posted by filihok View Post
    Why not?

    It's quite accurate.
    http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/ar...-war-good-for/

    [ATTACH=CONFIG]118378[/ATTACH]

    Leave a comment:


  • Jackaroo Dave
    replied
    Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
    Williams was as good or nbetter than Yaz no matter what he did with Fenway as a home park compared to both on the road
    Not afraid of controversy, are you, Roy?
    saying yaz adapted better by going to left while WIlliams did not belies the numbers
    But saying that Yaz adapted by going to left while Williams did not jibes with the numbers.
    the only thing that matters for this thread is Yaz was helped immensely by playing in a bandbox, and it inflates his value
    Clearly that's the only thing that matters to you. Those who can cope with stats that take park effects into account can see how much (roughly) they distort his value. In fact, they are the ones who have pointed out that Yaz was unusually able to take advantage of his home park.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jackaroo Dave
    replied
    Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
    power hitters all lol
    Why do you think I chose them, Roy? Yankee Stadium is death on right-handers; these right-handers are half dead already; yet they managed to "adapt" better to their home field than DiMaggio. ( . . . . maybe if I used a bigger font?)

    Leave a comment:


  • filihok
    replied
    Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
    I am not a big fan of WAR
    Why not?

    It's quite accurate.
    http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/ar...-war-good-for/

    WARvs.Wins_.jpg

    Leave a comment:


  • 9RoyHobbsRF
    replied
    I am not a big fan of WAR

    Originally posted by filihok View Post
    His value, as measured by WAR, adjusts his home park.

    Leave a comment:


  • filihok
    replied
    Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
    Williams was as good or nbetter than Yaz no matter what he did with Fenway as a home park compared to both on the road

    saying yaz adapted better by going to left while WIlliams did not belies the numbers

    the only thing that matters for this thread is Yaz was helped immensely by playing in a bandbox, and it inflates his value
    His value, as measured by WAR, adjusts his home park.

    Leave a comment:


  • 9RoyHobbsRF
    replied
    power hitters all lol

    Originally posted by Jackaroo Dave View Post
    Joe, Bobby Richardson, Horace Clark, and Frankie Crosetti all had better home/away splits than the Clipper.
    Edit: For Roy's benefit, by "better" I meant their home production was higher relative to their road production than Joe's.

    Leave a comment:

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