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Carl Yastrzemski's odd career

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  • lizmcl
    replied
    Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
    while he certainly played well it seems a little bit of a stretch to say he "single-handedly" destroyed Oakland
    True. It was more that that was how it seemed to us at the time -- Yaz had been overshadowed pretty much that whole season by Lynn and Rice, and looked his age most of the time, but when he went on a tear in that series we all thought "Jeez, this guy isn't done after all." He was the only player we were talking about those three days -- "My god, did you see what Yaz did, did you see him throw that guy out, did you see him score on that hit, I forgot he could run like that!"

    I'm talking impressions, not so much statistics. Other players played as well, or better, but for that series he was the one we were talking about out on the porch after the series was over. For someone who most of us thought was a tired old man, that series was his rebirth.

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  • filihok
    replied
    Originally posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
    Looks like most are on the same page here, Yaz and many other Bosox hitters have hugh home/away gaps.
    Where we differ, in degree how much did they benefit and how much of a factor does it mean in their overall stats.

    I still think it's downplayed too much by some, I put more into Bosox benefiting at home than some others on the board, means a good deal.
    I don't like mathematical projections because we have no way of knowing how accurate they and won't be drawn into a debate about that.
    A projection is just that, not fact what some present as a belief.
    I keep it simple, a guy rips the cover off the ball at home and a drastic reduction on the road, he really made out at home.
    A projection is an attempt to say what will happen in the future.

    We're not talking about the future...we're talking about the past.

    Leave a comment:


  • SHOELESSJOE3
    replied
    Looks like most are on the same page here, Yaz and many other Bosox hitters have hugh home/away gaps.
    Where we differ, in degree how much did they benefit and how much of a factor does it mean in their overall stats.

    I still think it's downplayed too much by some, I put more into Bosox benefiting at home than some others on the board, means a good deal.
    I don't like mathematical projections because we have no way of knowing how accurate they and won't be drawn into a debate about that.
    A projection is just that, not fact what some present as a belief.
    I keep it simple, a guy rips the cover off the ball at home and a drastic reduction on the road, he really made out at home.

    Leave a comment:


  • filihok
    replied
    Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
    yes I already added that
    Looks like 10 minutes after I posted, but yeah, you did.

    and if he was so smart and was able to adapt, why didn't that same trait display in road games????? Did he suddenly lose his IQ and adaptive powers?
    I don't think it has much (some, but not 'much') to do with intelligence. Some guys are right-handed fly ball pull hitters. Those guys will benefit more from Fenway than other types of hitters.

    Leave a comment:


  • 9RoyHobbsRF
    replied
    Originally posted by filihok View Post
    And a short left-field fence that you can hit fly balls off of that turn into singles and doubles instead of outs.
    yes I already added that

    and if he was so smart and was able to adapt, why didn't that same trait display in road games????? Did he suddenly lose his IQ and adaptive powers?

    Leave a comment:


  • filihok
    replied
    Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
    could not disagree more

    having a tight field with narrow foul territory and getting more chances for hits from foul pop ups not being caught is not being smart or taking advanatge or learning or being adative or smart
    And a short left-field fence that you can hit fly balls off of that turn into singles and doubles instead of outs.

    Leave a comment:


  • 9RoyHobbsRF
    replied
    could not disagree more

    having a tight field with narrow foul territory and getting more chances for hits from foul pop ups not being caught is not being smart or taking advantage or learning or being adaptive

    it is being lucky to have your career played in a offensive park

    not too mention a stupid high fence turning easy outs into hits

    as for this thread and being more impressed ... what little I thought of Yaz due to glaring park illusions is now even more diminished due to his disgruntled locker room antics disrupting teams111

    Originally posted by Jackaroo Dave View Post
    The last time this topic appeared, and I went through all of Yaz's home-road splits, the relative OPS+ showed the same overall conclusion, though not in such detail. As before, I'd like to remind Roy that taking advantage of one's home park speaks to the player's intelligence and flexibility. Yaz, Mel Ott, Chuck Klein, Bill Dickey, and lesser lights like Thurman Munson and Wally Moon were better able to help their teams win thereby.

    As repeatedly and most conclusively shown, most players play better at home--in part because they learn how to adapt to it. Yaz learned better than most. This discussion has deepened my respect for him.
    Last edited by 9RoyHobbsRF; 01-06-2013, 03:39 PM.

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  • Jackaroo Dave
    replied
    Originally posted by brett View Post
    Using Yaz' road rates of .264/.357/.422 and an average park factor of 107, and normal home road split data I get expected home rates for him in Boston to be:

    .292/.395/.468 compared to the actual .306/.402/.503

    Or another way to look at it is that his road rates predict an overall OPS+ about 4-5% lower than he actually produced. (Or that his road relative OPS+ was 124-125 relative to all players on the road.

    but we can't be sure that he didn't sacrifice some of his road stats to taylor his approach to his park, just that his relative home advantage is greater than average. As we've seen with many Colorado players, when they go somewhere else, their home rates drop but their road rates come up some.
    The last time this topic appeared, and I went through all of Yaz's home-road splits, the relative OPS+ showed the same overall conclusion, though not in such detail. As before, I'd like to remind Roy that taking advantage of one's home park speaks to the player's intelligence and flexibility. Yaz, Mel Ott, Chuck Klein, Bill Dickey, and lesser lights like Thurman Munson and Wally Moon were better able to help their teams win thereby.

    As repeatedly and most conclusively shown, most players play better at home--in part because they learn how to adapt to it. Yaz learned better than most. This discussion has deepened my respect for him.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bothrops Atrox
    replied
    Originally posted by brett View Post
    Using Yaz' road rates of .264/.357/.422 and an average park factor of 107, and normal home road split data I get expected home rates for him in Boston to be:

    .292/.395/.468 compared to the actual .306/.402/.503

    Or another way to look at it is that his road rates predict an overall OPS+ about 4-5% lower than he actually produced. (Or that his road relative OPS+ was 124-125 relative to all players on the road.

    but we can't be sure that he didn't sacrifice some of his road stats to taylor his approach to his park, just that his relative home advantage is greater than average. As we've seen with many Colorado players, when they go somewhere else, their home rates drop but their road rates come up some.
    This all seams very reasonable.

    Leave a comment:


  • brett
    replied
    Originally posted by Matthew C. View Post
    And what may be more extreme for Yaz is calculated already in wOBA, OPS+, WAR, what-have-you. Maybe not perfectly, but pretty well.
    Using Yaz' road rates of .264/.357/.422 and an average park factor of 107, and normal home road split data I get expected home rates for him in Boston to be:

    .292/.395/.468 compared to the actual .306/.402/.503

    Or another way to look at it is that his road rates predict an overall OPS+ about 4-5% lower than he actually produced. (Or that his road relative OPS+ was 124-125 relative to all players on the road.

    but we can't be sure that he didn't sacrifice some of his road stats to taylor his approach to his park, just that his relative home advantage is greater than average. As we've seen with many Colorado players, when they go somewhere else, their home rates drop but their road rates come up some.
    Last edited by brett; 01-06-2013, 01:54 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • filihok
    replied
    Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
    IMO, Yaz was probably the 6th or 7th best Red Sox position player that year.
    Per WAR
    Lynn 7.3
    Tiant 5.1 - pitcher
    Evans 4.6
    Lee 4.4 - pitcher
    Wise 3.6 - pitcher
    Fisk 3.2
    Rice 3.1
    Yaz 3.1
    Carbo 3.1

    And we know that WAR is extremely accurate, but not perfect


    http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/ar...-war-good-for/
    [ATTACH=CONFIG]118358[/ATTACH]
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • 9RoyHobbsRF
    replied
    Originally posted by TomBodet View Post
    Yaz was my fave and always will be. He kept having real good first halves and poopoo seconds-check out '74, 75, 78, 79, 82 and '83 for more. He was the Captain and Mr Clutch to the media and fans from whenI started to follow in '75, don't recall anyone expecting him to be '67 Yaz during that time.
    In the fall of 1975, I was a senior in high school (and the team's two year varsity baseball captain). My english teacher that year was from Boston. He was also my my freshman baseball coach (one of the best coaches I ever had) and he also coached me my 16 year old year in Colt League where I made all stars.


    He told us before Game 7 of the WS Yaz would go 4x4 and carry the Sox to the World Championship. It was almost as if he was brainwashed and in a trance. IMO, Yaz was probably the 6th or 7th best Red Sox position player that year.
    Last edited by 9RoyHobbsRF; 01-06-2013, 01:13 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • TomBodet
    replied
    Yaz was my fave and always will be. He kept having real good first halves and poopoo seconds-check out '74, 75, 78, 79, 82 and '83 for more. He was the Captain and Mr Clutch to the media and fans from whenI started to follow in '75, don't recall anyone expecting him to be '67 Yaz during that time.

    Leave a comment:


  • filihok
    replied
    Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
    you can't say he agrees Fenway inflates offense and ALSO accept as legitimate the response "all players have better home stats"
    ???

    Why can you not say that?

    Fenway inflates offense.

    AND

    MOST players hit worse on the road than they do at home.

    These are both facts.

    fancy graphs which are almost meaningless
    LOL

    It's the exact same thing as your chart showing home and road stats, just on a bigger scale.

    Amazing...
    Last edited by filihok; 01-06-2013, 12:13 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • filihok
    replied
    Originally posted by 9RoyHobbsRF View Post
    then what was the purpose [BLAH BLAH] of this post which started this foolish exchange:


    As this graph shows. The majority of players perform better at home than on the road.



    But, that DOES NOT MEAN that a player's road stats are the truer indicator of his actual talent.

    Another, equally valid, way to say that is that the majority of players perform worse on the road than at home.


    Stats like wRC+ and OPS+ adjust for the stadiums that a player plays in. Players' wRC+ and OPS+ generally remain consistant when switching between home parks. This is an indication that the adjustments are accurate.
    Which I, admittedly, made better in this attempt than in my original attempt.

    Leave a comment:

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