Carl Yastrzemski's odd career

[filihok]

Again, I don't see many who say that park effects should be ignored. the issue is always, how well can they quantified and to what degree do they affect the individual player being assessed. It is a muti-faceted issue. Of course Yaz benefited from his park, as do the Giant pitchers, and so on. How much is the key issue. wOBA, OPS+, WAR, etc. all take their best stabs at it, and I would imagine they get it close to right a majority of the time.

This best sums it up.

Let's take a player like Matt Holliday.
From 2004 to 2008 Holliday hit in Coor's field. Coor's field is a very well-known 'hitter's paradise'.
Holliday 2004-2008 Home: .423/.625 (OBP/SLG), .450 wOBA, 156 wRC+, 1353 PA's, 84 HR, 307 RBI
Holliday 2004-2008 Away: .348/.455 (OBP/SLG), .348 wOBA, 108 wRC+, 1303 PA's, 44 HR, 176 RBI
Holliday 2004-2008 TOTAL: .386/.552 (OBP/SLG), .400 wOBA, 133 wRC+, 2698 PA's, 128 HR, 483 RBI

Totally different player at home and on the road, right?

Holliday moved out of Coor's in 2009. If he is solely a product of Coor's Field then we'd expect his numbers from 2009 through 2012 to look more like his 2004-2008 away numbers. Is that what we observe?

Holliday 2009-2012 TOTAL: .388/.517 (OBP/SLG), .390 wOBA, 146 wRC+, 2549 PA, 101 HR, 389 RBI.

Nope. Not what we observe at all. His overall numbers from 2004-2008 and 2009-2012 are quite similar (.390 wOBA compared to .400 wOBA. There has been a league-wide reduction in offense, especially power so the SLG% are different). Per wRC+ he's actually better over all after leaving Coor's field (146 to 133).

This is the point that I'm trying to make. I don't speak for everyone, or anyone, else. League & park adjusted numbers do a good job of taking the differences in stadiums into consideration. There's no need to say that so-and-so is a the hitter that he is on the road. The evidence, disproves that.

What does that mean for Yaz? His counting numbers HR's, R'sBI, etc may be inflated from playing in Fenway, but we can still accurately measure his true offensive output. His true output ISN'T just what he hit on the road.

*Stats from FanGraphs

[Bothrops Atrox]

Again, I don't see many who say that park effects should be ignored. the issue is always, how well can they quantified and to what degree do they affect the individual player being assessed. It is a muti-faceted issue. Of course Yaz benefited from his park, as do the Giant pitchers, and so on. How much is the key issue. wOBA, OPS+, WAR, etc. all take their best stabs at it, and I would imagine they get it close to right a majority of the time.

[9RoyHobbsRF]

I have not continually called them the best staff in baseball but if Lincecum reverts to form watch out

however, I am glad you recognize the legitimacy of park illusions and they are very prevalent in evaluating Red Sox hitters, like Yaz

Park illusions also overrate the Giants pitchers. 3.09 ERA at home. 4.29 on the road. Yet you continually call them the best pitching staff in baseball. Can't have it both ways, Roy.

[TonyK]

Haven't recent changes to Fenway Park negated a lot of the hitter's advantages?

[GiambiJuice]

so the Colorado Rockies are clearly the best hitters in baseball because of gaudy stats created by a huge park illusion?

Park illusions also overrate the Giants pitchers. 3.09 ERA at home. 4.29 on the road. Yet you continually call them the best pitching staff in baseball. Can't have it both ways, Roy.

[9RoyHobbsRF]

As one who clearly remembers the Kasko-Johnson Era Red Sox, the perceptions of Yaz shifted widely over that period. The team was riddled by dissension in 1971, and many in the press fingered Yastrzemski and his close friend Reggie Smith as the ringleaders: Billy Conigliaro accused them of conspiring to get his brother traded the previous fall, and these charges ripped the team apart in mid-season. This brought back all the "Yaz got Pesky fired, Yaz got Harrelson traded" stories of previous years. Yaz had a poor year in 1972, as well, and was ripped by rookie Carlton Fisk for not providing clubhouse leadership -- whichdidn't help his image with the fans. He was also dealing with injuries during this period, which kept his performance below the levels we'd gotten used to in 1967-70. There was a lot of talk that he should be traded while he still had value.

It wasn't until the 1975 playoffs that people really began to respect Yaz again -- he singlehandedly destroyed Oakland in that series, or at least that was how it looked to us at the time, and from then to the end of his career we respected him as a gutsy veteran who we were lucky to have on the team. He wasn't flashy like Lynn or Rice or Tiant, but after 1975 we thought of him as the heart of the club.

Yaz hit .455 in that short series, 3 other Red Sox hit over .400
Yaz had 2 RBI's in that series, 3 other Red Sox had 2 RBIs and one had 3 RBIs
The Red Sox had 31 hits in the 3 games, of which Yaz had 5
Red Sox pitchers had a 1.67 ERA in the three games

while he certainly played well it seems a little bit of a stretch to say he "single-handedly" destroyed Oakland

[9RoyHobbsRF]

I just don't like how some players are somehow 'excused' for their huge home/road splits ('he took advantage of his home park!' or 'EVERYONE hits better at home!'), while others are dismissed as products of their home stadium, even if their splits are very similar. Jim Rice's home advantage for his career was about the same as Yaz, and not as extreme as Wade Boggs, and yet he is often dismissed as 'creation of Fenway', while the other two are excused for it. Likewise, Chuck Klein has very similar home/road splits to Ron Santo, and the same situation applies. Seems like a double standard to me.

I would change "I just don't like it" to something stronger

[9RoyHobbsRF]

so the Colorado Rockies are clearly the best hitters in baseball because of gaudy stats created by a huge park illusion?

and here I thought the home games count too...

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Is it a coincidence, two lefty's for example, Yaz and Fred Lynn, look like two different players, home and away splits.
Fenway for the most part of it's history, bottom line, hitters heaven.
Some RH Bosox hitters.
Cronin----------H .327----A .276
D. Dimaggio-----H .323---A .273
Vern Stephens--H .327---A .253
Bobby Doerr----H .315---A .261
Hugh gaps to put it mildly.
All but one has a slugging percentage, 100+ points higher at home.

Pure nonsense when we have to looks at posts trying downplay the hugh advantage by pointing out how the rest of the league bats when playing there, so that negates the player home field advantage. Again nonsense, not looking at OPS+ for the player and the league.
The issue is, the only one that counts is what if that player was not playing 88 or more game at home every season, what would his composite career stats look like. Great park to hit in, small foul territory and for years one of the shortest backstop distances, home plate to seating behind home plate.
Some older parks, home to backstop..Fenway 54--- Shibe 64--- Yankee Stadium 75--- Forbes 70+-- Comiskey 86-----Sportsmans 67 feet.
Only in recent years are parks in Fenway's neighborhood. Hitters love Fenway, favorable hitting conditions can not be ignored or downplayed

[Bothrops Atrox]

That's not entirely fair to Klein. Yes, no one can deny he was helped immensely by the Baker Bowl. Yet we don't know (we can run 20 different simulations to guess), but we can't know what he would have achieved had he played more than 11 games a year in any other ballpark? Also, I'd be interested in knowing how many of his hits bore a direct correlation to the dimensions of the ballpark? Would his homeruns all have been mere long outs in other stadiums or would they have cleared the wall there as well? Were most of his singles directly aided by the ballpark or was it a non-factor? (I'm not being facetious. I am honestly asking because I don't know).

Also, let's not forget Klein could also steal bases and was by no means a "poor" defensive corner outfielder. Yes, he led the league in errors four times, but he also mastered that wall in RF of the Baker Bowl. In some ways, he was to RF there, what Yaz was to RF in Fenway.

Of course there is no way to know for sure, but it would be silly to think that it didn't have some effect. And for a borderline case, it wouldn't take much. You, yourself admit that he was "helped immensely." That is no less extreme than what I said. I never claimed he was a bad player or that all of his success was due the park.

Advanced statistics agree that he was a bad fielder beyond his errors. Hard to say how much the park contributed, like you said.

[lizmcl]

As one who clearly remembers the Kasko-Johnson Era Red Sox, the perceptions of Yaz shifted widely over that period. The team was riddled by dissension in 1971, and many in the press fingered Yastrzemski and his close friend Reggie Smith as the ringleaders: Billy Conigliaro accused them of conspiring to get his brother traded the previous fall, and these charges ripped the team apart in mid-season. This brought back all the "Yaz got Pesky fired, Yaz got Harrelson traded" stories of previous years. Yaz had a poor year in 1972, as well, and was ripped by rookie Carlton Fisk for not providing clubhouse leadership -- whichdidn't help his image with the fans. He was also dealing with injuries during this period, which kept his performance below the levels we'd gotten used to in 1967-70. There was a lot of talk that he should be traded while he still had value.

It wasn't until the 1975 playoffs that people really began to respect Yaz again -- he singlehandedly destroyed Oakland in that series, or at least that was how it looked to us at the time, and from then to the end of his career we respected him as a gutsy veteran who we were lucky to have on the team. He wasn't flashy like Lynn or Rice or Tiant, but after 1975 we thought of him as the heart of the club.

[GiambiJuice]

and here I thought the home games count too...

[TonyK]

Yaz credited Hungarian born trainer Gene Berde for helping him get into great shape for the 1967 season. Ted Williams also had suggested Yaz close his stance, while Bobby Doerr advised him to raise his arms higher. One source mentions that Yaz never duplicated Berde's same off-season training habits in later years as they were too difficult.

Had he produced several more seasons like 1967 then I think we would be debating who was the better player - Yaz or Ted.

Anyone know what Yaz's feelings are about electing some of the PED users to the Hall of Fame?

[Jackaroo Dave]

I just don't like how some players are somehow 'excused' for their huge home/road splits ('he took advantage of his home park!' or 'EVERYONE hits better at home!'), while others are dismissed as products of their home stadium, even if their splits are very similar. Jim Rice's home advantage for his career was about the same as Yaz, and not as extreme as Wade Boggs, and yet he is often dismissed as 'creation of Fenway', while the other two are excused for it. Likewise, Chuck Klein has very similar home/road splits to Ron Santo, and the same situation applies. Seems like a double standard to me.

Willshad, are the same posters doing the accusing and the excusing? When you use the passive voice or talk about what "people" or "they" are saying, it is very hard for me to figure out who you have in mind, so it's a challenge for me to understand or respond.

[The Commissioner]

When you are a poor defensive CO with only 6 seasons over 130 games played, and whose only calling card is offense (in an extreme offensive ballpark), the park issue is a much bigger deal in handling his perception vs. reality.

That's not entirely fair to Klein. Yes, no one can deny he was helped immensely by the Baker Bowl. Yet we don't know (we can run 20 different simulations to guess), but we can't know what he would have achieved had he played more than 11 games a year in any other ballpark? Also, I'd be interested in knowing how many of his hits bore a direct correlation to the dimensions of the ballpark? Would his homeruns all have been mere long outs in other stadiums or would they have cleared the wall there as well? Were most of his singles directly aided by the ballpark or was it a non-factor? (I'm not being facetious. I am honestly asking because I don't know).

Also, let's not forget Klein could also steal bases and was by no means a "poor" defensive corner outfielder. Yes, he led the league in errors four times, but he also mastered that wall in RF of the Baker Bowl. In some ways, he was to RF there, what Yaz was to RF in Fenway.